Posted on 07/07/2011 1:44:52 PM PDT by my3centseuro
I have been following the various news stories about operation "fast and furious" and how various levels of the administration may or may not have covered up aspects of the operation etc.
One thing I have not seen discussed or questioned is what the BATF should or could have done in the first place.
Here in Arizona I can walk into any gun store and purchase a firearm or many firearms legally and without very many restriction. I can carry that gun loaded or unloaded just about anywhere in the state. I can freely sell that firearm to just about anyone within Arizona (a few exceptions such as felons, illegal aliens, etc)
I can even walk across the border into Mexico without violating any state or federal law. I will be breaking Mexican laws but not US laws.
Now lets think about this in context of "fast and furious". What US or Arizona law was violated by anyone involved that would allow the BATF to stop the exchange of legally obtained firearms from someone in Arizona to a member of a drug cartel in Mexico?
Also, does anyone really think that if the BATF somehow was able to stop these guns from getting into the cartel's hands that these murders would not have happened?
Please help me understand what the real issue is.
straw purchases are illegal. The gov’t underwrote illegal activities that resulted in many deaths in mexico and this country....all in a poorly veiled attempt to bolster their position of the need for more gun control. They then compounded the illegal acts by lying about it and obstructing the investigation
BATF was encouraging such illegal transactions, knowing the guns would be taken across the border.
At about the same time all this started there was a media blitz screaming about American guns causing Mexican gun violence. To those of us active in the pro gun movement it was obviously all part of a big dog and pony show, a manufactured crisis which they could exploit to sway American public opinion in support of gun bans.
That's a hypothetical question. What can be said is they wouldn't have taken place with guns provided illegally by the BATFE. That, and the point that the activity was undertaken to support the governments contention that more gun control is necessary are the issues.
This whole operation was your typical, State run, false flag, propaganda psy-op designed to take away the rights of law abiding citizens. The FEDGOV made sure guns sold legally by Middle-class American gunshops ended up in the hands of violent Mexican drug cartels. After the guns were used to kill a bunch of innocent people the FEDS and their surrogates could jump up a down in the Corporate Media and say how that rotten 2nd Amendment killed kids. The sheeple would then gladly give up their rights for a little bit of security. Its the oldest trick in the book. In Mafia terms its called a protection racket.
‘One thing I have not seen discussed or questioned is what the BATF should or could have done in the first place.’
Putting military weapons in the hands of thugs is a stupid public policy. Whatever the means of acquiring weapons, the very last thing law enforcement should be doing is arming criminals.
Secondly, the administration had already blamed gun shop owner as the ones who sold the criminals weapons as a pretense to demand more gun control. This was openly discussed as policy, but the LIE was that they were arming criminals themselves. Those weapons have already been used in crimes in the US and THAT makes the ones who made this policy decisions partly responsible for the crimes that were committed.
If I am negligently managing my legally obtained gun and it is used in a crime I am criminally liable.
So far, that we are aware of, these gunwalker weapons have been responsible for one murder and one robbery. The administration has already lied to congress about it and tried to force the resignation of the head of the ATF to try and coerce him not to testify as a whistleblower. This is also a federal offense.
IMHO, this is far worse than Watergate ever was. It is a flagrant abuse of authority and outright criminality under the color of authority and should be punished as such- no matter how far up the food chain it should go.
http://www.nachumlist.com/gunrunner.htm
There is no other explanation.
The last time I bought a gun I had to go through a really irritating process.
First I had to fill out a long form with quite a few obtuse questions, then supply my drivers license. Then I had to wait while the dealer made a phone call and get the government’s permission to sell it to me.
Totally worthless process.
If anyone wants to get a gun, even a hardened, wanted criminal, he can get one through any number of illegal means.
The one thing I disagree with my fellow gun owners about operation F&F is that even in Mexico with their draconian laws, the drug smugglers etc. would have gotten their guns whether they came from the U.S. or not.
The reason I have not said anything is I enjoy seeing these Federal LEOs being blamed for Mexican violence.
The BATFags, on Holder's (and apparently Obama's) orders sent ILLEGAL straw buyers into legitimate guns shops. In some cases pressured the owners to proceed with the sales despite the owner's clearly expressed (to the ATF, other officials and their lawyers) reservations.
Also, does anyone really think that if the BATF somehow was able to stop these guns from getting into the cartel's hands that these murders would not have happened?
Who knows how fate would have worked out any particular moments in time, but the fact remains that guns sold by our own government agencies were used to kill our own law inforcement agents and other innocent people.
Please help me understand what the real issue is.
The real issue is that there was never any possible way to track these weapons, even if they had any intention of doing so. That entire premise they're handing us is FARCICAL. Melson even admitted as much when he said that at times they didn't even follow the criminal buyers out of the store.
This was a setup in order to further the "U.S. guns cause Mexican crime" meme that was manufactured out of whole cloth at the highest levels of Obama administration and fed their slimey ass-licking accomplices.
The Bush administration had a sting operation which netted more than a thousand arrests over illegally purchased weapons, via an agreement with the sellers and electrtonic tracking of the weapons purchased illegally, so the weapons were not being allowed across the borders.
The criminal enterprise now running the country want desperately to conflate the Bush era program with the Holder/Obama program. The media are gladly cooperating in the conflation, so it is up tot he alternate media to keep this plain and truthful.
The Bush administration had a sting operation which netted more than a thousand arrests over illegally purchased weapons, via an agreement with the sellers and electrtonic tracking of the weapons purchased illegally, so the weapons were not being allowed across the borders.
The criminal enterprise now running the country want desperately to conflate the Bush era program with the Holder/Obama program. The media are gladly cooperating in the conflation, so it is up to the alternate media to keep this plain and truthful.
Why does that matter to you?
If Eric Holder drives the getaway car in a bank robbery where a Federal Agent gets killed, that's accessory to murder.
That's BAD.
If Eric Holder nabs the bank robbers by sitting across the street in surveillance of the bad guys....THAT'S GOOD.
See any difference?
This is what I find, in part, so troubling.
The overall goal of these operations and the methodology used to obtain the goal seems very risky and thus idiotic (to be nice) from the very beginning.
I suspect you have to get an instant background check before you can buy. The straw purchases are resold or handed off to people who cannot pass the background check. When you resell your weapon it is at a time of your desire and it is not necessarily what the bad guys are looking for. It is much less apt to go to Mexico or rob a liquor store.
Here’s the actual text of USC TItle 18, Chap. 44, which deals with firearms:
http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/18/usc_sec_18_00000922——000-.html
Start reading, and you’ll see what the BFD is.
The dealer(s) in question knew that the buyers were straw buyers, and TOLD the ATF about the criminal activity in front of them. The dealers did their duty, per the law. The ATF agents in Arizona then were told, by superiors, to NOT enforce the law, to “let the guns walk.”
Could it be that the stated goal -- tracking the weapons -- wasn't the real goal?
Could it be that the real goal was to undermine the 2nd Amendment?
Frankly, I want to know whom from the White House was pushing this narrative to the media.
I doubt the networks would push the story from someone in DOJ; they would only go along if it came from the top.
There are those in BATF that wanted the guns in Mexican criminal hands. They wanted dead Mexicans so they could show pictures on TV and all the liberal talking heads could cry out for an American gun ban.
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