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Lakewood woman's lawsuit forces police to return confiscated firearms(OH)
Buckeye Firearms Association ^ | 16 September, 2011 | Chad D. Baus

Posted on 09/17/2011 7:37:59 AM PDT by marktwain

On August 30, the Cleveland Scene reported that after having attempted to get police to return her collection of firearms for an entire year, a Lakewood, OH veteran was finally forced to file a lawsuit against the police department, which had confiscated the collection from her home when she was away.

From the article:

Francesca Rice no longer serves in her country's armed forces, but she brought a piece of the action back home with her.

It seems the Lakewood vet had stockpiled her Edgewater Towers condo with a home arsenal including handguns, shotguns, a sniper rifle — plus a Thompson sub-machine gun, just in case the pizza guy got fresh.

Her cache somehow caught the attention of Lakewood Police, who paid a visit last September. When they found Rice wasn't home, they asked an obliging employee of the complex to open up the apartment without her consent. Once inside, they raided the gun rack, making off with 13 firearms worth around $15,000. The only problem: They had no apparent reason to.

When Rice kindly asked to have her toys returned, the cops acknowledged that the weapons were legally owned. But they refused to return them without a court order. And so Rice has filed suit in Lakewood Municipal Court.

In truth, according to a list published by the Lakewood Municipal Court, the firearm incorrectly described by The Scene as a "sub-machine gun" was just a modern, semi-automatic version of the iconic rifle, and the "sniper" rifle was a vintage Chinese SKS M21 semi-automatic carbine.

With the obligatory, incorrect and scary-sounding descriptions we've come to expect from the news media having been included, The Scene continued:

So far, nobody's doing much talking. Lakewood Police Chief Timothy Malley declined to speak specifically about the seizure, citing the ongoing lawsuit. He also declined to speak generally about situations in which Lakewood cops would be likely to seize property on a whim. Rice's attorney did not return Scene's calls for comment, and Rice didn't respond to repeated buzzes on her apartment intercom.

Amid all the zipped lips, there's a moral here for everybody: Gun owners, beware of law enforcement looking to trod upon your rights. And non-gun owners, beware of neighbors who are particularly well prepared for the zombie apocalypse.

Buckeye Firearms has been attempting to learn more about the situation since this article originally was published just over two weeks ago. We were able to determine that Lakewood police had acted based on a situation involving the gun owner's absence from a Virgina VA hospital where she had been receiving treatment.

However, no charges were ever filed, and a year later, Rice's requests to have her guns returned had gone unanswered. (Note: while we don't know ANY of the specifics of Ms. Rice's medical situation in 2010, this is a good example to point to when discussing why our military veterans are often hesitant to seek psychiatric treatment at the VA for some of the more common symptoms faced by troops after they return home, such post-traumatic stress disorder.)

Fortunately, the lawsuit seems to have had its desired effect. From a Cleveland Scene article dated September 14:

Last month we brought you the story of Francesca Rice, an Iraq war veteran in Lakewood whose stockpile of licensed firearms was seized by cops. So Rice, whose service left her disabled, pursued justice the American way: By suing their ass.

Since Scene first reported the story, Rice's arsenal has been restocked and her legal action tabled.

The incident started in September 2010, when Lakewood Police were asked to check on Rice by the VA hospital, where she'd been receiving treatment. Thirteen weapons — including a machine gun and sniper rifle — were taken when cops suspected Rice's disability prevented her from owning them under Ohio law.

Last week, with no further evidence from the VA that Rice couldn't handle a gun, the police returned her weapons.

"On the advice of my attorney," says Rice, "I have safely and legally stored my collection elsewhere."

We are pleased that Ms. Rice's collection has been returned to her, and wish her all the best.

Chad D. Baus is the Buckeye Firearms Association Vice Chairman.


TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Crime/Corruption; News/Current Events; US: Ohio
KEYWORDS: banglist; confiscation; jbt; lawsuit; lping; oh; policestate; rapeofliberty
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I hope she received a goodly monetary settlement to compensate for the attorney fees and to teach the police to be more considerate of Constitutional rights.
1 posted on 09/17/2011 7:38:06 AM PDT by marktwain
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To: marktwain

Looks like all she got were her firearms. I’d like to see her take a chunk out of the chief’s rear end.


2 posted on 09/17/2011 7:42:09 AM PDT by Scotsman will be Free (11C - Indirect fire, infantry - High angle hell - We will bring you, FIRE)
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To: marktwain

Wonder how many cops homes they had to raid to find all the firearms.?


3 posted on 09/17/2011 7:43:27 AM PDT by org.whodat (so Perry's purchase price starts at $5001.00: and $29,000 , was a sell.)
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To: marktwain; bamahead

PING to bamahead

She should get a huge settlement, but it says in the last part of the story that her legal action was “tabled”.

To have his happen to any American is an outrage, and to a veteran is dispicable, nazi-like behavior by our thug government.


4 posted on 09/17/2011 7:45:19 AM PDT by TheConservativeParty (PALIN 45 -The cure for "meet the new boss, same as the old boss." Sarah Palin 2012 "Not For Sale!")
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To: marktwain
"The incident started in September 2010, when Lakewood Police were asked to check on Rice by the VA hospital, where she'd been receiving treatment."

I am a very strong 2nd Amendment supporter, and doubly so for returning veterans. But to me, when medical personnel request law enforcement to check on a patient it tells me that there is a concern for the safety and well being of the patient. We don't yet know if she expressed a desire to harm herself or others, and/or if that was communicated to the police. Without knowing if she made such a statement, the actions of the police cannot be adequately judged.

5 posted on 09/17/2011 7:49:07 AM PDT by Enterprise ("Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities." Voltaire)
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To: marktwain

confiscated the collection from her home when she was away.

Is there anything about the above statement that would make you think a warrant was ever lawfully served?
I’m havin a bit of trouble here making the connection...


6 posted on 09/17/2011 7:50:30 AM PDT by djf (Buncha sheep: A flock.. Buncha cows: A herd.. Buncha fish: A school.. Buncha baboons: A Congress..)
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To: Scotsman will be Free

Ditto that.

If a bully doesn’t suffer pain and discomfort, we can’t expect him to behave differently.


7 posted on 09/17/2011 7:51:45 AM PDT by labette ( Humble student of Thinkology)
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To: marktwain

This veteran and firearms issue is getting a bit out of control. I am receiving treatment at a VA Hospital and every time I go there they always ask me...”Have you been feeling depressed lately?” I have thought about this question many times and I of course say...”No.” Any veteran that is a gun owner beware of that question. It could come back to haunt you.


8 posted on 09/17/2011 7:51:53 AM PDT by mosaicwolf (Strength and Honor)
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To: marktwain

Why were the cops aware of her collection in the first place?

I will assume the cops had no warrant or probable cause.

This would then be simple larceny theft.


9 posted on 09/17/2011 7:55:32 AM PDT by G Larry (I dream of a day when a man is judged by the content of his character)
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To: marktwain

Jack-booted Thugs...


10 posted on 09/17/2011 7:56:46 AM PDT by Vaquero ("an armed society is a polite society" Robert A. Heinlein)
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To: Enterprise
We don't yet know if she expressed a desire to harm herself or others,

Or is she was there for an ingrown toenail.

11 posted on 09/17/2011 8:15:00 AM PDT by SouthTexas (You cannot bargain with the devil, shut the government down.)
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To: SouthTexas
"Or is she was there for an ingrown toenail."

Indeed! Maybe she was distraught over frizzy hair. Or like most women, she has a closet full of shoes, and can't decide whether to wear a pair she already wore, or to get a new pair.

12 posted on 09/17/2011 8:20:42 AM PDT by Enterprise ("Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities." Voltaire)
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To: G Larry

A lot of folks here blaming police, but it was the VA that tipped them off.

Now...was there a warrent issued?


13 posted on 09/17/2011 8:26:33 AM PDT by EBH (God Humbles Nations, Leaders, and Peoples before He uses them for His Purpose)
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To: G Larry

I agree.

This was outright theft. The D.A. should be pressing charges.


14 posted on 09/17/2011 8:27:46 AM PDT by 2111USMC (Not a hard man to track. Leaves dead men wherever he goes.)
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To: marktwain

I have no problem with them temporarily taking the firearms based on the information in the article being 100% factual and not some made up pretext to enter her apartment in search of the guns. I.E an anti-gun neighbor complained or an ‘anonymous’ tip.

1. Reported missing
2. Police opened her apartment to check for her
3. They find a cache of guns and the owner is reported missing.

Police should take the guns for safety and security reasons ... since they did essentially break into with her being reported as missing.

However, they should have immediately returned the guns to her after checking on the legality. Now I know that may sound extreme to some, but the check simply has to be done once the firearms are in police custody and being readied to hand back to the owner. They have to make sure that they are not arming somebody who otherwise wouldn’t be entitled. Imagine the outcry that would ensue if they gave’em back without checking then discovered that she couldn’t legally own them — after she guns down few people.


15 posted on 09/17/2011 8:34:10 AM PDT by Usagi_yo
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To: EBH

It would be nice if more troubled folks sought God and faith, than the VA.
The VA medicates and dabbles in secular counseling.

I lost a dear friend last year, to PTSD and a self-inflicted gun shot.
She had the VA, but no faith.


16 posted on 09/17/2011 8:36:17 AM PDT by G Larry (I dream of a day when a man is judged by the content of his character)
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To: EBH; All
My speculation was that it went like this:

VA calls the police: “We are concerned about Ms Rice, who lives at xxxxxx. Would you please check to see that everything is all right?

Police go to xxxxxx. They knock. No answer. The police think, “We have to make sure Ms Rice is not dead or dying inside”.

Police break down the door. They look around. They find the guns. “OMG guns! We cannot leave them here unsecured or where a possibly unstable Ms Rice would have access to them!” “We do not even know if they are all legal!” Bundle them up and impound them.

Now, they do not want to return them, because “If anything would happen, we might be liable”.

Just speculation, but the intersection of the Nanny State with absolute terror of litigation produces horrific results.

17 posted on 09/17/2011 8:37:37 AM PDT by marktwain (In an age of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act.)
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To: Enterprise

“I am a very strong 2nd Amendment supporter, and doubly so for returning veterans. But to me, when medical personnel request law enforcement to check on a patient it tells me that there is a concern for the safety and well being of the patient. We don’t yet know if she expressed a desire to harm herself or others, and/or if that was communicated to the police. Without knowing if she made such a statement, the actions of the police cannot be adequately judged.”

Bullshiite!! The VA does this on a routine basis. My son missed 2 appointments at the Tucson VA hospital last year. After missing the 2nd one I was paid a visit by Yuma County deputies. Law enforcement has no right to confiscate property without cause


18 posted on 09/17/2011 8:38:25 AM PDT by sean327 (God created all men equal, then some become Marines!)
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To: sean327

Until you find out EXACTLY what information was given to the Lakewood Police, I will render judgement, and not before then.


19 posted on 09/17/2011 8:42:03 AM PDT by Enterprise ("Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities." Voltaire)
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To: TheConservativeParty; Abathar; Abcdefg; Abram; Abundy; albertp; Alexander Rubin; Allosaurs_r_us; ...
Her cache somehow caught the attention of Lakewood Police, who paid a visit last September. When they found Rice wasn't home, they asked an obliging employee of the complex to open up the apartment without her consent. Once inside, they raided the gun rack....When Rice kindly asked to have her toys returned, the cops acknowledged that the weapons were legally owned. But they refused to return them without a court order.. And so Rice has filed suit in Lakewood Municipal Court.

Such blatant hubris. She should also sue them for legal fees among other things!



Libertarian ping! Click here to get added or here to be removed or post a message here!
20 posted on 09/17/2011 8:46:50 AM PDT by bamahead (Few men desire liberty; most men wish only for a just master. -- Sallust)
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To: marktwain
God help me if I catch a “sneak and peek” in my private home some night in the early hours! I would shove that Thompson Sub-Machine gun so far up a freddy’s ass they could taste gun oil! Not to mention I would stick my size 13 jump boot right behind the Thompson for good measure!

Sheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeees

21 posted on 09/17/2011 8:57:02 AM PDT by paratrooper82 (We are kicking Ass in Afghanistan, soon we will be home to kick some more Asses in Congress!)
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To: marktwain

These stories of gun confiscation never mention if they also took the ammo. Guns without ammo is no more useful than sticks and stones.


22 posted on 09/17/2011 9:01:03 AM PDT by PoloSec ( Believe how that Christ died for our sins, was buried and rose again for our justification)
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To: Usagi_yo

Maybe the American people should start confiscating the cops firearms for our own safety? Both in their homes and at work!

How would that sound?


23 posted on 09/17/2011 9:07:13 AM PDT by paratrooper82 (We are kicking Ass in Afghanistan, soon we will be home to kick some more Asses in Congress!)
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To: marktwain

Which law is it that requires a court order before proprty is returnned?


24 posted on 09/17/2011 9:13:09 AM PDT by texmexis best
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To: Enterprise
when medical personnel request law enforcement to check on a patient it tells me that there is a concern for the safety and well being of the patient.

Do doctors office medical questionaires asking if you have firearms in your home indicate the same concern for the safety and well being of the patient?

25 posted on 09/17/2011 9:22:43 AM PDT by Hot Tabasco (FREE YOUR BREASTS! FREE YOUR MIND!)
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To: paratrooper82

Sounds like you have a credibility issue.


26 posted on 09/17/2011 9:23:54 AM PDT by Usagi_yo
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To: texmexis best
“Which law is it that requires a court order before proprty is returnned?”

There is none that I know of.

It drives me crazy when the authoritarians in our society are simultaneously terrified at the thought of being held responsible for things beyond their control.

Even in Yuma, the police are reluctant to return firearms without a court order. We must make them fear the consequences through lawsuits or elections.

27 posted on 09/17/2011 9:48:00 AM PDT by marktwain (In an age of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act.)
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To: Hot Tabasco
"Do doctors office medical questionaires asking if you have firearms in your home indicate the same concern for the safety and well being of the patient?"

NO!

Now go ahead with your next irrelevant question.

28 posted on 09/17/2011 9:59:33 AM PDT by Enterprise ("Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities." Voltaire)
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To: marktwain

Once our medical records are all linked up through Obamacare, this kind of stuff can happen to all of us ! Can’t wait !


29 posted on 09/17/2011 11:06:38 AM PDT by Red Boots
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To: Red Boots
look up “fusion centers” that were created after 9/11 with federal money (our tax dollars). these are nothing more than clearinghouses for personal information about Americans, e.g. medical records, cell phone records, credit card purchase records, etc.

Law enforcement used to have to obtain a warrant with probable cause to get access to this kind of private info about Americans! Not anymore, these [fusion centers] allow any law enforcement officer who wants access to have it, about your most personal info, including vets personal medical records.

In Michigan, the [fusion center] is called the Michigan Intelligence Operations Center (MIOC). visit this website and read how the mission has creep into a “health safety, welfare” program now, instead of the intended mission to prevent another terror attack!

there is no such thing as a fourth amendment protections any longer in the Constitution!

30 posted on 09/17/2011 11:57:09 AM PDT by paratrooper82 (We are kicking Ass in Afghanistan, soon we will be home to kick some more Asses in Congress!)
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To: paratrooper82
All kinds of nasty surprises in the Patriot Act. I guess they had to pass the bill before we could know what was in it.
31 posted on 09/17/2011 12:56:37 PM PDT by Ken H
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To: Enterprise
“Without knowing if she made such a statement, the actions of the police cannot be adequately judged.”

Oh, I don't know. They can be adequately judged against the laws on the books.

32 posted on 09/17/2011 5:19:21 PM PDT by starlifter (Pullum sapit)
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To: starlifter
"Oh, I don't know. They can be adequately judged against the laws on the books."

You're right. You don't know.

33 posted on 09/17/2011 5:52:13 PM PDT by Enterprise ("Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities." Voltaire)
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To: Enterprise
“Oh, I don't know” is a polite way of saying I don't agree with you.

The laws on the books should be adequate to judge the actions of the police.

An analogy is the police taking your car away because you have liquor in your house...you might yourself or someone else.

Though certain copsuckers view any police action as prudent and appropriate.

34 posted on 09/17/2011 6:36:15 PM PDT by starlifter (Pullum sapit)
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To: starlifter
"“Oh, I don't know” is a polite way of saying I don't agree with you."

I don't care if you agree. You don't know.

"An analogy is the police taking your car away because you have liquor in your house...you might yourself or someone else."

Quit drinking for tonight and come up with an analogy tomorrow that makes sense.

35 posted on 09/17/2011 8:37:44 PM PDT by Enterprise ("Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities." Voltaire)
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To: org.whodat

“Wonder how many cops homes they had to raid to find all the firearms.?”

BINGO!! (BTW, I forwarded this article to the NRA.)

JC


36 posted on 09/18/2011 3:43:13 AM PDT by cracker45
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To: Enterprise

“...Without knowing if she made such a statement, the actions of the police cannot be adequately judged.”

HORSEPUCKY!! They confiscated her property absent a court order and refused to return it until legal action was filed against them. Whatsamatterwidyou??

JC


37 posted on 09/18/2011 3:47:14 AM PDT by cracker45
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To: Usagi_yo

“...Imagine the outcry that would ensue if they gave’em back without checking then discovered that she couldn’t legally own them — after she guns down few people.”

You have a low opinion of our veterans, eh? I’m glad you don’t live in my neighborhood or I’d be inclined to ask you to leave! SHEEEESH

JC


38 posted on 09/18/2011 3:53:59 AM PDT by cracker45
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To: cracker45

Is that what you read in what I wrote? That’s quite imaginative.


39 posted on 09/18/2011 4:23:05 AM PDT by Usagi_yo
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To: Enterprise
...But to me, when medical personnel request law enforcement to check on a patient it tells me that there is a concern for the safety and well being of the patient....

Or, more likely, the medical "official" is a flaming leftie that would love to disarm the American public "for the greater good".

40 posted on 09/18/2011 4:40:13 AM PDT by meyer (We will not sit down and shut up.)
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To: meyer

Cite your proof.


41 posted on 09/18/2011 11:58:10 AM PDT by Enterprise ("Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities." Voltaire)
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To: cracker45

Regarding this thread, there is nothing wrong me and I stand by my statement.


42 posted on 09/18/2011 11:59:24 AM PDT by Enterprise ("Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities." Voltaire)
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To: mosaicwolf
The new Showtime series, Homeland, portrays returning vets as terrorists and DHS agents as "heroes" of the people. Disgusting.
43 posted on 09/18/2011 12:51:36 PM PDT by ronnyquest (I spent 20 years in the Army fighting the enemies of freedom only to see fascism elected at home.)
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To: Enterprise
Cite your proof.

In an effort to defend the indefensible, you're asking me to prove the obvious?

44 posted on 09/18/2011 3:12:08 PM PDT by meyer (We will not sit down and shut up.)
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To: meyer
"In an effort to defend the indefensible, you're asking me to prove the obvious? "

Your answer is judged as "non responsive" and you are hereby disqualified from further participation. Thank you for your interest. You may apply again in six months. Good bye, and good luck.

45 posted on 09/18/2011 5:52:16 PM PDT by Enterprise ("Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities." Voltaire)
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To: Usagi_yo

My imagination isn’t that good - you painted a pretty clear picture in words, and I “looked” at it as written.
That’s precisely why I put your very own written words in quotes...makes denying it kinda difficult! The cops said her weapons were legally owned, but refused to return them, then here you come galloping in, positing that they “might” be illegal and she “might” shoot a bunch of people, apparently all on the basis of her having been receiving some sort of medical treatment at a VA hospital. Sure smells like an anti-veteran bias to me!!

JC


46 posted on 09/18/2011 6:01:34 PM PDT by cracker45
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To: starlifter
"Though certain copsuckers view any police action as prudent and appropriate."

I don't know to whom your are referring as being "copsuckers," but if you will re-read what I have posted you will see that I have neither approved nor condemned the actions of the police.

47 posted on 09/18/2011 6:01:39 PM PDT by Enterprise ("Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities." Voltaire)
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To: Enterprise

Yep, I read the thread and your very high opinion of your deductive reasoning ability definitely appears to be in the minority! I gotta ask; are you a current or prior gubmint employee of some sort?

JC


48 posted on 09/18/2011 6:07:57 PM PDT by cracker45
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To: cracker45

You gotta ask, and I don’t gotta answer. It’s not relevant to the thread and YOU DAMNED WELL KNOW IT!


49 posted on 09/18/2011 6:14:50 PM PDT by Enterprise ("Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities." Voltaire)
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To: cracker45

Not only is your imagination vivid, but your comprehension was off a bit too.

As written, I was clearly sympathetic to both sides. That the gun owner should have had the guns returned Immediately and that the Police had every right to verify legal and eligible ownership prior to returning them. It’s called CYA.

Now, as to *how* they discovered the weapons, I find it a little bit off. But I’ll take it at face value that it wasn’t an ‘anonymous tip’ (wink wink), nor was it a neighbor complaining about her gun collection. IIRC, the article said she didn’t show up for her therapy and the folks at the VA had reason to believe that some harm may have come to her.

As for the what-if? had nothing to do with her veteran status. It’s just plain old simple CYA. You don’t give guns back without knowing for certain that they they are legal and that the person who owns them has not had that right revoked.


50 posted on 09/18/2011 9:14:43 PM PDT by Usagi_yo
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