Grid Problems Trigger Rolling Wind-Farm Outages in Pacific Northwest

Forbes Energy ^ | 4/14/2011 @ 7:54PM | William Pentland

[Presbyterian Reporter]

Shutting down the wind farms will save taxpayers money as we do not subsidize hydropower like we do wind power.

[Texas Eagle]

Video: Windmill Attacks Vulture

[dila813]

For Homesteads, not on the grid

[dila813]

That isn’t the point, if they don’t have a controlled release through the dam, it kills endangered species.

The dams weren’t designed to be intermittent, that would have seemed stupid back when these dams were built.

[DTogo]

This is a common issue most wind farms address prior to construction: transmission curtailment. If the owner/investor accepted "curtailment risk" upfront, sucks to be them.

If they did not, the grid operator and/or power off-taker may still be obligated to compensate the wind farms(s) for energy that would have otherwise been delivered were it not for the curtailment.

[truthguy]

Can you imagine being the repairman who is called to fix that turbine motor?

Yes, and any good engineering undergraduate student could immediately tell you why Wind (and Solar) are not viable energy sources. For this post I concentrate on Wind only.

1. Wind Turbines are Maintenance nightmares. Just looking at the Construction any student should be able to tell you why they are so expensive to service and maintain.

2. Wind Turbines EAT BALL-BEARINGS

3. Wind Turbines don't produce any power when the wind isn't blowing and typically that's when you need them most.

4. The Blades of a Wind Turbine can break easily in an ICE Storm. The Blades are also very expensive.

5. Wind Turbines produce continuous, hideous noise which drives people who live within range absolutely crazy.

6. Each Wind Turbine doesn't produce all that much power.

7. Wind Turbines are hideously ugly and despoil the beauty of the environment in which they are located.

8. Wind turbines kill birds. How about that Audubon? Where are you on wind power?

[Travis McGee]

Cool video.

[dila813]

I don’t know, when I looked at the standard terms, hooking up the the power grid by a small generator is a privilege not a right.

You have no right to hook up to the grid if you don’t won’t the distribution network you are hooked into, they don’t.

Of course, if they build their own transmission station to handle their power, then your right.

[spokeshave]

9)...The shadow of the blades running across the country side sends people into epileptic fits.

10). Too high density of windmills changes the local micro-climate...less rainfall....as in China...once fertile food producing areas are now dust bowls.

[DTogo]

From the National Center for Policy Analysis: to produce a 1000 megawatt power plant a wind farm would require 192,000 acres or 300 square miles. A nuclear plant would need about 1700 acres (or 2.65 mi2), and about 3 mi2 for a coal fired power plant. The transmission lines for the wind turbines would be massive, 12,000 miles just for the array."

That's a completely misleading and inaccurate statement.

The average footprint of a single wind turbine is roughly 24ft. in diameter, or 452sq. ft., or 1.04% of an acre. Using 3.0MW turbines, a 1000MW wind farm would require 333 turbines x 452sq. ft. = 3.46 acres.

This is much more accurate calculation as numerous other activities can be conducted within the perimeter of a wind farm: farming, ranching/grazing, hunting, logging, living, etc. Most other power generation facilities are completely fenced off and restricted.

Regarding transmission, using a generous 2000ft. distance between turbine placements, the total underground cabling required to connect all 333 turbines would be 666666ft. or 126 miles "just for the array."

Many FReepers may not like wind energy, but let's argue the pros/cons with facts, not exaggeration and hyperbole like Liberals do.

[4Speed]

Wind power blows ?

[The Great RJ]

The failure of wind energy is most apparent when you drive by massive “wind farms” and see few if any turning. There is a large wind farm in southwestern Minnesota off of Highway 23 that stretches literally from horizon to horizon. I have driven by on several occasions when not one of these hundreds of windmills was moving a single blade.

[DTogo]

The obligations of the wind farm to transmit electricity into the grid to certain quality standards (I'm not an electrical engineer), and obligations of the grid operator to accept that energy (or curtail it from time to time as the case may be), are all spelled out in the interconnection agreements between the two parties.

Most interconnection terms follow standardized FERC guidelines, but some details such as curtailment can vary from region/project to region/project.

[dila813]

Using 3.0MW turbines, a 1000MW wind farm would require 333 turbines x 452sq. ft. = 3.46 acres.??

You are assuming 100% utilization? It is very well known that you get at best 20% utilization on these wind mills.

Maintenance, repairs, etc...you have to multiple by at least by 5 and I am not even an expert, so I but there are 50 other things you are missing.

[dila813]

Here are the rules:
http://www.ferc.gov/industries/electric/indus-act/gi/wind.asp

If they were going to get paid regardless, they wouldn’t be pissed.....

Again, if they owned the transmission station, they wouldn’t be subject to the power company’s orders. It is their lines that they are on.

You are thinking about the rules for small generators, these guys are LARGE generators which must obey the grid operator’s rules.

[DTogo]

Most wind farms require at least a 30% net capacity factor to be reasonably financeable and get built, which includes regular and unscheduled maintenance. Many in the windier Midwest operate well above 40% with some achieving 50%+. So no, this is not the equivalent of a 1000MW baseload coal plant, but even those operate at about 90~95% capacity with regular maintenance.

[353FMG]

Siemens just loves it — they supply the turbines. (I wonder who the congresscritters are that they contribute to)

Seeing those stupid windmills in the West Texas landscape makes me realize that it is all a political scheme to enrich certain groups of people.

The energy is IN the ground you a-holes — not on top of it.

[DTogo]

Again, if they owned the transmission station, they wouldn’t be subject to the power company’s orders.

The substation is where the wind farm's collection system ends and the grid begins = grid rules. The issue of curtailment risk is between the wind farm and power off-taker: who's taking the risk to either not get paid, or pay regardless.

[dila813]

I am not an expert, but I know you are wrong.

They have read about this extensively, and the average utilization is 80% with one down wind mill for every 5.

Also, the wind isn’t blowing all the time, it is intermittent.

No wind mill in the world is operating at 95% of its capacity, no where except in wind tunnels.

[dila813]

There is a difference between a sub-station for distribution and a transmission station.

One steps down voltage from high tension lines, the other is designed to step up voltage for transmission. If you want to see the difference, go to your local power plant and look at it then go to your neighbor sub-station.

Also, rules are different for small generators like you with a wind mill on your house and a large generators like one of these wind mills.

If they owned the transmission station, they could petition the grid operator to give them equal access to the grid, but they don’t, and they can’t. Not to say that politics may intervene on their behalf.