The great euro Putsch rolls on as two democracies fall

Why wouldn't you want to comply with the law? And what does this have to do with the fact that there are other ways to get people to do what one wants without physical force?

As an example, if I were a bank robber making his getaway, I wouldn't want to comply with the law... so without compelling force exerted against me, there would be no way to get me to comply with the law.

And there is simply no way other than brute force to *MAKE* someone do anything. And even then, it's not perfect in making someone do something.

You see it all the time at work. If, as a manager, you try to give a simple task to someone who doesn't want to do it... they oftentimes will not do it.

Why? Because you cannot *MAKE* them do it. Force will result in criminal charges against you and a lawsuit against the company.

Furthermore, as long as they don't show a trend of continually refusing your taskings, they won't get fired, either.

Whereas if you look at war, that is the most blatant example of how it truly takes brute force to make others who do not want to comply with your directives... comply with your directives.

The Taliban of Afghanistan did not want to turn over Osama Bin Laden to the US... and there was nothing we could do to *MAKE* them do it.

And even the brute application of force didn't to it. For ultimately, in the end, you can choose to die before compliance. It's the ultimate act of refusal (as well as the last act you can do).

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I'd also point out that nothing the British crown did could make our American colonists comply with British directives back in 1776. We had had enough.

And it took a war (brute force) for Britain to even *TRY* and make us comply.

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And if Greece felt as strongly about this issue, there would be nothing the EU could do about it *EXCEPT* use brute force.

That the Greeks do comply implies that they find compliance with EU directives to be more in their favor than outright refusal.

Your argument is false and your examples are not parallel. Being shut out of the single market is a very real threat of force without the use of instruments of war. These bailout loans were resisted by all these countries, including Portugal and Ireland, until the pressure became too much. And perhaps you forgot about the Communist Party's role in causing unrest in Greece? and that it was the German government that proposed to bail out Greece in the first place? (with outrageous alternative suggestions such as selling some of their islands . . .)

If I wanted invalid arguments, I'd go to those liberal websites.

They still had a choice. Each choice has side-effects they had to consider. And in their self-interest, they decided that taking the bailout was the best course of action.

The last time there was a case of a European head of state being ‘forced’ to do anything was with the Anschluss of Austria by the Germans in WWII. I supervised the grand-nephew of the Austrian Chancellor of the time. The stories he told of the Anschluss literally had the German delegation chasing down the Chancellor, forcably seating him, holding him down into the chair, placing the pen into his hand, placing the treaty in front of him, and then pointing a loaded gun toward his head.

With Greece and Italy and all the rest, they did not have anything even remotely close to that.

They found that out of all the available options they could take, taking the money was in their own best interest.

You really sound like a so-called ‘free speech’ advocate that is upset that others may decide to exercise their own right to free speech... to protest your own. Or in other words, someone who wants to be able to do whatever they want without regard to the consequences.

So headlines are screaming "Germany took over Europe without firing a shot" and you still can't acknowledge that Germany did learn its lesson from two failed world wars and instead waged a "battle of the peace"?

I'm really shocked that more people don't read The Art Of War. There are far more ways to fighting a war than using military machines and brute strength. Look at III:2, where it says that "supreme excellence consists in breaking the enemy's resistance without fighting" . . . this goes back to I:18, "All war is based on deception." And the European Union is and has been one long, protracted game of utter deception. So WADR, I don't think that your understanding of foreign policy is as complete as you have convinced yourself it is.

I’m not talking about foreign policy. I’m talking about individual choice. You, Olog-hai, cannot be ‘forced’ to do anything withut a certain and credible threat of force backing it up.

And that same notion also applies to the politicians who control nations.

That is what you fail to understand.

As a thought experiment, say you owe your bank $10,000,000 but cannot afford to pay it back... and I show up at your door with a check for $1,000,000.

If I say that you can have the check and 9 more just like it... but I want you to divorce your wife and let me marry her, are you being ‘forced’ to do it?

That you have no ability to tell me to go and shove it?

No... you’d have a choice.

And so do those politicians.

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