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Rep. Paul says defense bill assures ‘descent into totalitarianism’
thehill.com/ ^ | 12/26/11 09:25 | Jonathan Easley

Posted on 12/27/2011 7:25:47 AM PST by VU4G10

GOP presidential candidate Ron Paul warned that the National Defense Authorization Act, which was passed by Congress this month, will accelerate the country’s “slip into tyranny” and virtually assures “our descent into totalitarianism.”

“The founders wanted to set a high bar for the government to overcome in order to deprive an individual of life or liberty,” Paul, the libertarian congressman, said Monday in a weekly phone message to supporters. “To lower that bar is to endanger everyone. When the bar is low enough to include political enemies, our descent into totalitarianism is virtually assured. The Patriot Act, as bad as its violations against the Fourth Amendment was, was just one step down the slippery slope. The recently passed National Defense Authorization Act continues that slip into tyranny, and in fact, accelerates it significantly.”

(Excerpt) Read more at thehill.com ...


TOPICS: Front Page News; Government; Politics/Elections
KEYWORDS: 4th; amendment; detained; fourth; gagdadbob; kook; onecosmosblog; paul; privacy; ron; tyranny
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1 posted on 12/27/2011 7:25:55 AM PST by VU4G10
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To: VU4G10

Sorry, Rep. Paul, but I can’t listen to you, no matter how prescient your words are. After all, you’re a nut!


2 posted on 12/27/2011 7:29:48 AM PST by pingman (Durn tootin'; I like Glock shootin'!)
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To: VU4G10

Paul is right on this one.


3 posted on 12/27/2011 7:29:59 AM PST by circlecity
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To: VU4G10

Has newt commented on this?


4 posted on 12/27/2011 7:30:27 AM PST by muddler (Chaos is coming..)
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To: VU4G10

The War on Americans started a long time ago. This will be the war the government wins. Speak against any of our beloved leaders and you will be beaten like a baby seal and locked up to never be seen again. NO, it’s not about locking up muslims. It’s everyday taxpaying americans. Stay safe.


5 posted on 12/27/2011 7:31:43 AM PST by VicVega (LSU is without a doubt the #1 team in the nation. GEAUX TIGERS, Geaux Saints)
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To: VU4G10

And we all know Newt and Romney would both sign this as well.


6 posted on 12/27/2011 7:35:03 AM PST by GlockThe Vote (The Obama Adminstration: 2nd wave of attacks on America after 9/11)
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To: pingman

Even a stopped clock is right twice a day.

Paul is a nut, but this bill that got passed was bi-partisan, and whoever voted for it was nuts too.

I cannot imagine an American, much less a politician voting to arrest other Americans with no trial, no recourse, no lawyer.But they did it. The Nazi a-holes.


7 posted on 12/27/2011 7:36:13 AM PST by Venturer
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To: VU4G10

The ol’nut is right on this one.


8 posted on 12/27/2011 7:38:06 AM PST by avacado
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To: VU4G10

We have heard the same propaganda in regards to the Patriot Act, the surveillance of enemy communications across our borders, the existence of Gitmo, the border fence and enforcement of our borders, and a host of other National Security issues whereas the likes of Ron Paul and his followers continually distort and lie about the issue with the same claims of tyranny each time.

They are continually wrong. In each and every case they have lied about actions taken to boost our National Security. We can debate each and every Act and I am all for taking as many measures as possible to limit how they can or may affect our liberties but the lies of the likes of Ron Paul and his Code Pink followers are getting old.


9 posted on 12/27/2011 7:38:39 AM PST by TheBigIf
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To: Venturer

Lindsey Graham and John McCain tried to tear a new one in Rand Paul because he was against it in the Senate. We have no leadership in Washington. We are at war with ourselves and our leaders are winning.


10 posted on 12/27/2011 7:40:16 AM PST by VicVega (LSU is without a doubt the #1 team in the nation. GEAUX TIGERS, Geaux Saints)
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To: TheBigIf

So you’re ok with this?


11 posted on 12/27/2011 7:45:43 AM PST by muddler (Chaos is coming..)
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To: VU4G10
I am not a Ron Paul supporter, but on this subject he is exactly right. The reason we have detainees in Guantanamo is that the fifth amendment and others would apply to them on US soil. In effect this bill brings Guantanamo justice to your neighborhood. Guantanamo will then be no further than your nearest Federal Court House.

The constitution is mostly a document limiting the powers of a central government. The tenth amendment really means what it says. Tenth Amendment states the Constitution's principle of federalism by providing that powers not granted to the federal government nor prohibited to the states by the Constitution are reserved, respectively, to the states or the people.

Unless the last 60 years of attacks on the Constitution are rolled back we indeed are on our way to Tyranny.

12 posted on 12/27/2011 7:46:47 AM PST by cpdiii (Deckhand, Roughneck, Mud Man, Geologist, Pilot, Pharmacist. THE CONSTITUTION IS WORTH DYING FOR!)
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To: pingman

Only an idiot would reject the truth because of the messenger. Open your eyes before it’s too late, republicans voted FOR this bill.


13 posted on 12/27/2011 7:51:03 AM PST by stockpirate (Romney and Ann Coulture are Big Government socialists, just like other republican elites.)
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To: TheBigIf
In each and every case they have lied about actions taken to boost our National Security.

Can you point out the lie please?

14 posted on 12/27/2011 7:52:51 AM PST by An.American.Expatriate (Here's my strategy on the War against Terrorism: We win, they lose. - with apologies to R.R.)
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To: muddler

You are against detaining illegal enemy combatants? I do not agree with those who claim that non-US citizens engaged as illegal enemy combatants having Constitutional rights. They never had and they do not.

Ron Paul and others in the Code Pink mentality seem to want to fight for terrorists rights.

As to this specific piece of legisaltion I will admit I need to study it more but based upon the track record of Ron Paul and those who follow him I would say that we are being lied to again with the same old cries of tyranny.


15 posted on 12/27/2011 7:53:59 AM PST by TheBigIf
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To: stockpirate
Only an idiot would reject the truth because of the messenger. Open your eyes before it’s too late, republicans voted FOR this bill.

I have a sneaky suspicion that he was being sarcastic ...

16 posted on 12/27/2011 7:54:25 AM PST by An.American.Expatriate (Here's my strategy on the War against Terrorism: We win, they lose. - with apologies to R.R.)
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To: An.American.Expatriate

In the past the lie has been to pretend that we are talking about American citizens when in reality we are talking about foreigners for one.


17 posted on 12/27/2011 7:56:25 AM PST by TheBigIf
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To: VU4G10
our descent into totalitarianism

We are already there. States all around the world are hellbent to eclipse God.

18 posted on 12/27/2011 7:58:52 AM PST by Theophilus (Not merely prolife, but prolific)
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To: VU4G10

Huh? Bafflegab!


19 posted on 12/27/2011 7:59:10 AM PST by chooseascreennamepat (When every candidate is running in last place, everyone is in first place.)
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To: TheBigIf
As to this specific piece of legisaltion I will admit I need to study it more ...

Is generally a good idea before posting opinions about it, as, in this case, the broken clock is right. This legislation extends the "battle field" to the US itself and allows the CinC to decide your fate - no chance for review - no lawyer - nada ...

20 posted on 12/27/2011 7:59:58 AM PST by An.American.Expatriate (Here's my strategy on the War against Terrorism: We win, they lose. - with apologies to R.R.)
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To: TheBigIf

Due process for Americans, no brainer.


21 posted on 12/27/2011 8:02:25 AM PST by muddler (Chaos is coming..)
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To: cpdiii

No the reason is because there is a fear of liberal Courts. Not because foreigners have Constitutional rights but because there is a fear that a Court could try and grant them these rights.

And I do not at all buy into the BS that this brings Gitmo to every neighborhood. It is more of the same BS trolled out by the likes of Ron Paul and Code Pink. We were told the same BS about the Patriot Act (we were all going to lose our freedom), etc….


22 posted on 12/27/2011 8:03:30 AM PST by TheBigIf
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To: VU4G10

Ron Paul is right about a lot more than he is wrong about.


23 posted on 12/27/2011 8:05:29 AM PST by B Knotts (Just another Tenther)
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To: An.American.Expatriate

I say BS. This is the same type of garbage that was claimed about the Patriot Act and the survellience of enemy communications across our borders. Each time it was claimed by the Paulites and Code Pink that all of us were having our freedom taken away and that American citizens were going to be locked up without a trial.

It never happened in the past when PAUL and the left claimed these things and I call BS this time as well.


24 posted on 12/27/2011 8:06:03 AM PST by TheBigIf
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To: TheBigIf
In the past the lie has been to pretend that we are talking about American citizens when in reality we are talking about foreigners for one.

That is not entirely true - the President now has the power to order the assassination of US Citizens outside the US, at his whim, a power he has already exercised. Persons subject to the Constitution have already been detained without council for "suspicion" and removed to Guantanamo.

Just because Paul has some views which are deplorable does not mean that his opinion here is as well - furthermore, he is not the first in line with his criticism of this - we have been discussing this issue for several weeks here ...

25 posted on 12/27/2011 8:06:58 AM PST by An.American.Expatriate (Here's my strategy on the War against Terrorism: We win, they lose. - with apologies to R.R.)
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To: TheBigIf
This is the same type of garbage

So, you claim that no person subject to the Constitution was denied due process based on the Patriot Act or any of the following legislation. Due process meaning that a court was consulted prior to any act of surveilance / detention and/or that a detained person was not denied habeas corpus.

And no, I'm NOT refering to combatants in Iraq / Afghanistan / elsewhere ...

26 posted on 12/27/2011 8:12:27 AM PST by An.American.Expatriate (Here's my strategy on the War against Terrorism: We win, they lose. - with apologies to R.R.)
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To: An.American.Expatriate

FDR had American citizens put to death without a civilian trial. Nothing new. But if you are on a battle field acting as an illegal enemy combatant trying to assist in the killing of American troops then too f—ing bad if you get a bullet in the head without a trial.

You are telling me a lot about yourself by the fact that it bothers you that such a traitor isn’t treated like a mere criminal.

War is war and is not some game of cops and robbers. If you want to go play on the battle field as an American citizen then too bad if get to find out what the game is all about.

On every issue of National Security the views of Ron Paul are deplorable, I doubt this issue is any different.


27 posted on 12/27/2011 8:13:48 AM PST by TheBigIf
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To: TheBigIf
"...whereas the likes of Ron Paul and his followers continually distort and lie about the issue with the same claims of tyranny each time. ..."

Extremists are extremists, are extremists. bttt

"....One cannot simply blindly apply first principles to every situation, for this ends in a dogmatic and false absolutism.

"This is, for example, what creeps people out about Ron Paul.

"He says plenty of things -- derived from first principles embodied in the Constitution -- that make perfect sense. However, he always goes too far, in that half of what he says results from a blind application of first principles, irrespective of empirical reality.

"The same moral confusion afflicts leftists who wouldn't waterboard a known terrorist with information about an imminent attack, owing to an unthinking allegiance to the principle of "non-torture" -- which any normal person shares, up to a point, the point of suicidal insanity. ..."

HERE

28 posted on 12/27/2011 8:15:52 AM PST by Matchett-PI ("One party will generally represent the envied, the other the envious. Guess which ones." ~GagdadBob)
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To: An.American.Expatriate

No. I claim that no person legally was detained in such a manner. Just because a law was used to detain someone doesn’t mean it was used properly. I do claim that the Patriot Act itself is not the danger to our liberty that the likes of Ron Paul and others claim it was.

Any law can be abused and there are many leftists who try to create abuses of power in regards to our National Security and to our troops intentionally just so they can undermine a good law.


29 posted on 12/27/2011 8:16:43 AM PST by TheBigIf
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To: TheBigIf

I refuse to carry on conversations with people who refuse to read what I write and then decide to attack me for things I did NOT write.

So, good day.


30 posted on 12/27/2011 8:17:07 AM PST by An.American.Expatriate (Here's my strategy on the War against Terrorism: We win, they lose. - with apologies to R.R.)
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To: TheBigIf

The bills sponsors state that it applies to American citizens. Here is a link for you for more research.

http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2011/12/the-indefinite-detention-bill-does-apply-to-american-citizens-on-u-s-soil.html

The bottom line if the executive branch deems you a terrorist you go straight to jail. No phone call. No laywer. No rights what so ever. You could disappear never to be seen again.

I don’t know what your thoughts are on this, but it scares the hell out of me. Just from my past posts on this website.

Next up is the Stop Online Piracy Act, SOPA. This will shut down the alternative media, including Free Republic.

Say what you want about Ron Paul, but he is consistently been against these types of bills.


31 posted on 12/27/2011 8:17:51 AM PST by thepainster
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To: VU4G10

Dr Ron Paul makes sense 87.5% of the time ... but the 12.5% of the time he does not make sense is why he should not be considered as a Presidential Candidate ... for any party ... and he’s not a Republican any more than Bernie Sanders is a Democrat, even though Senator Sanders votes with the Democrats the majority of the time.

Reince Priebus should separate all GOP support from Ron Paul so that no more Republican finances support Dr Paul ... and so that he can no longer hang onto GOP coat tails to promote himself and his brand of libertarianism. His name should NOT be on the GOP Candidate list.


32 posted on 12/27/2011 8:19:08 AM PST by HighlyOpinionated (I am Roman Catholic, US Citizen, Patriot, TEA Party Alumni, Oath Keeper, Voter, Auburn Fan!)
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To: TheBigIf

“Those who would trade their liberty for security deserve neither.” Jefferson

I read the bill and you are nothing but a propagandist for the fascist tyrants.


33 posted on 12/27/2011 8:22:30 AM PST by stockpirate (Romney and Ann Coulture are Big Government socialists, just like other republican elites.)
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To: An.American.Expatriate

You said:

“the President now has the power to order the assassination of US Citizens outside the US, at his whim, a power he has already exercised.”

The President is Commander-in-Chief of the Armed Forces so of course he can order the killing of any illegal enemy combatant on the battle field legally as per our Constitution. Yet you claim that the power is “at his whim” which is pure BS. Any President can be charged by Congress for abusing his power and for crimes.

When people add in comments like you did of “at his whim” you are distorting the issue and lying about the powers involved. This argument also only goes to protect traitors and illegal enemy combatants (terrorists) and not to protect liberty.


34 posted on 12/27/2011 8:23:24 AM PST by TheBigIf
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To: TheBigIf

Can you post each and every lie, or just some of them.


35 posted on 12/27/2011 8:28:12 AM PST by Raider Sam (They're on our left, right, front, and back. They aint gettin away this time!)
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To: VicVega

Lindsey Graham and John McCain, two RINO’s we would be better off without.


36 posted on 12/27/2011 8:29:34 AM PST by Venturer
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To: stockpirate

Isnt it funny how often you see “Ron Paul is a nut, but on THIS issue...” Pretty soon, people will agree with him 100%, and still say that.


37 posted on 12/27/2011 8:30:28 AM PST by Raider Sam (They're on our left, right, front, and back. They aint gettin away this time!)
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To: Raider Sam

What are you talking about?

In this thread I haven’t even claimed that I am right on this issue, I have simply given my opinion based upon the track record of those who object to it.

So why should I have to itemize every lie of Ron Paul? Just so you can have some sort of pleasure from seeing me have to defend myself?

I have given my opinion about the those who support ‘terrorist rights’ like Ron Paul and his ilk and it is all I have for now.


38 posted on 12/27/2011 8:32:57 AM PST by TheBigIf
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To: muddler

Yes he is for it, you can tell by the fascist propaganda he spewed out in his post.


39 posted on 12/27/2011 8:33:34 AM PST by stockpirate (Romney and Ann Coulture are Big Government socialists, just like other republican elites.)
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To: TheBigIf

1. The CinC does NOT have a Constitutional Power to order the assassination of anyone.

2. “At his whim” means at his discretion alone and, based on your post where you claim he has this power, you essentially affirm that fact.

3. “Illegal Combatant” is a term which the Bush Administration should never have coined. Enemy Personal are combatants and are protected, as are civilians. Anyone else who raises arms against an Army is covered directly in the Geneva Conventions - i.e. a field comander may determine thier fate in a tribunal.


40 posted on 12/27/2011 8:34:56 AM PST by An.American.Expatriate (Here's my strategy on the War against Terrorism: We win, they lose. - with apologies to R.R.)
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To: TheBigIf
It never happened in the past when PAUL and the left claimed these things and I call BS this time as well.

Actually it did happen to Joseph Padilla. As a writ of habeas corpus got close to the Supreme Court, Bush knew he would get his head handed to him so he turned Padilla over to the Justice Department. This law is just trying to further codify the Patriot Act.

However, when they try this again, if it makes it to the Supreme Court, this law will be struck down just like major pieces of the Patriot Act already have, and it will not be close (8-1 or 9-0) so they will have to use extrreme care to keep this law on the books.

On the other hand, that does not excuse the traitors that voted for it. May they rot in hell.
41 posted on 12/27/2011 8:35:58 AM PST by microgood
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To: Raider Sam
.....Pretty soon, people will agree with him 100%, and still say that.

Oh yeah? Do you think that traitor Bradley Manning is a hero? Do you think there is any chance most conservatives will ever think that? The list of Ron Paul quackery is very long and the vast majority of conservatives will never agree or go along with him on any of it.

Like all libertarians, Ron Paul has many good points to make on economic issues and is profoundly wrong on foreign and defense policy - so wrong he falls into kook territory. Most conservatives, including myself, will agree with him on a lot of economic issues. Most conservatives, including myself, will never, ever agree with him on his leftist foreign and defense policy views. When it comes to libertarians like Ron Paul, this dynamic is simply not going to change.

42 posted on 12/27/2011 8:38:57 AM PST by Longbow1969
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To: microgood

Yes I know of Padilla and agree that his case should have been handled differently but this is why we have a Judicial system.

I am not sure of what major pieces of the Patriot Act have been struck down. I have only seen it upheld by the Courts as being Constitutional.


43 posted on 12/27/2011 8:41:40 AM PST by TheBigIf
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To: TheBigIf

For God’s sake would you please forget Ron Paul and read the legislation in question. It is real and very dangerous.


44 posted on 12/27/2011 8:42:07 AM PST by JGT
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To: TheBigIf; An.American.Expatriate

When do gangs become terrorists? If a Blood or Crip is trying to kill Americans, are they not terrorists? Do they lose their rights? If the battlefield includes America, then who becomes a combatant? How about the anti-government militias?

Although, we have already seen the US government kill innocent people while trying to kill someone they thought was a radical militiaman after trying to frame him for a non-violent crime. So it is not all that unreasonable that the FBI would be fine firing on citizens, and if the US is classified a battlefield, then citizens can become combatants.

To me, the deplorable security views are the ones that send troops in to fight a quick war, then leave them there for a decade to build infrastructure and get shot at. Either go in to win or dont go, but half-assing a war is truly deplorable. And that is what the majority of both parties has done since WWII.


45 posted on 12/27/2011 8:42:58 AM PST by Raider Sam (They're on our left, right, front, and back. They aint gettin away this time!)
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To: microgood

Also one case does not make Paul right at all. The claims by Paul and others like him is that these laws would result in a loss of our liberty and not just the random single case that is to be disputed of the law being improperly applied.

Again that is why we have Courts and other checks and balances. Any law can be abused even if they are Constitutional or not.


46 posted on 12/27/2011 8:44:34 AM PST by TheBigIf
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To: Raider Sam
If a Blood or Crip is trying to kill Americans, are they not terrorists?

I have been preaching this since the mid 80's - terrorists use violence, or the threat of the use of violence, to further a political cause. [Official DoD Definition].

Either go in to win or dont go, but half-assing a war is truly deplorable.

QFT.

47 posted on 12/27/2011 8:49:01 AM PST by An.American.Expatriate (Here's my strategy on the War against Terrorism: We win, they lose. - with apologies to R.R.)
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To: VU4G10

Heading out. Doctors appointment.


48 posted on 12/27/2011 8:49:15 AM PST by TheBigIf
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To: TheBigIf

You are such a drama queen. I never said you were wrong or right about something, I asked you to clarify your statement. You said “in each and every case they have lied...” So I asked you to back it up.


49 posted on 12/27/2011 8:49:43 AM PST by Raider Sam (They're on our left, right, front, and back. They aint gettin away this time!)
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To: TheBigIf
As to this specific piece of legisaltion I will admit I need to study it more...

Yep.

50 posted on 12/27/2011 8:50:00 AM PST by Smokin' Joe (How often God must weep at humans' folly. Stand fast. God knows what He is doing)
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