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Israeli Girl, 8, at Center of Tension Over Religious Extremism
The New York Times ^ | December 27th, 2011 | ISABEL KERSHNER

Posted on 12/28/2011 2:46:34 AM PST by KantianBurke

BEIT SHEMESH, Israel — The latest battleground in Israel’s struggle over religious extremism covers little more than a square mile of this Jewish city situated between Jerusalem and Tel Aviv, and it has the unexpected public face of a blond, bespectacled second-grade girl.

She is Naama Margolese, 8, the daughter of American immigrants who are observant modern Orthodox Jews. An Israeli weekend television program told the story of how Naama had become terrified of walking to her elementary school here after ultra-Orthodox men spit on her, insulted her and called her a prostitute because her modest dress did not adhere exactly to their more rigorous dress code.

The country was outraged. Naama’s picture has appeared on the front pages of all the major Israeli newspapers. While Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu insisted Sunday that “Israel is a democratic, Western, liberal state” and pledged that “the public sphere in Israel will be open and safe for all,” there have been days of confrontation at focal points of friction here.

Ultra-Orthodox men and boys from the most stringent sects have hurled rocks and eggs at the police and journalists, shouting “Nazis” at the security forces and assailing female reporters with epithets like “shikse,” a derogatory Yiddish term for a non-Jewish woman or girl, and “whore.”

(Excerpt) Read more at nytimes.com ...


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Front Page News; Israel
KEYWORDS: children; israel; zealots
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Religious zealotry is never pretty.
1 posted on 12/28/2011 2:46:39 AM PST by KantianBurke
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To: KantianBurke

Religious zeal is a good thing but only if it is for the True Faith.


2 posted on 12/28/2011 2:50:53 AM PST by mas cerveza por favor
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To: KantianBurke
She is Naama Margolese, 8, the daughter of American immigrants who are observant modern Orthodox Jews. An Israeli weekend television program told the story of how Naama had become terrified of walking to her elementary school here after ultra-Orthodox men spit on her, insulted her and called her a prostitute because her modest dress did not adhere exactly to their more rigorous dress code.

Sometimes, animals disguised as humans ask to be taken out. These freaks are literally begging to be machine-gunned into lawn fertiliser. It's the same disease that afflicts the bulk of the subscribers to that human cancer called Islam.

3 posted on 12/28/2011 2:53:51 AM PST by James C. Bennett (An Australian.)
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To: mas cerveza por favor

Which is what? Mormonism? Catholicism? Amish?


4 posted on 12/28/2011 3:06:34 AM PST by KantianBurke (Where was the Tea Party when Dubya was spending like a drunken sailor?)
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To: KantianBurke

Sounds like Fred Phelps and the Westboro Baptists have a sister chapter within the ultra-orthodox Jewish community. Question: “How can we make our religion look really, really bad to the rest of the world?”


5 posted on 12/28/2011 3:14:47 AM PST by ClearCase_guy (Nothing will change until after the war. It's coming.)
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To: KantianBurke
ultra-Orthodox men

Last word inaccurate.

6 posted on 12/28/2011 3:22:15 AM PST by Oztrich Boy (Whatever happened to that Amy Summerland sailing chick?)
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To: mas cerveza por favor

Catholicism, but my previous point stands on its own. Zeal for the the truth is inherently good while zeal for falsehood is not. The problem is falsehood, not generic zeal as you indicated.


7 posted on 12/28/2011 3:24:05 AM PST by mas cerveza por favor
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To: mas cerveza por favor

“Catholicism”

Says you. There are a group of folks known as Baptists who might disagree with that assessment.


8 posted on 12/28/2011 3:27:12 AM PST by KantianBurke (Where was the Tea Party when Dubya was spending like a drunken sailor?)
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To: James C. Bennett

“has been spat on and otherwise insulted”

Yes animals , just like muslims who behead or stone girls to death. /s


9 posted on 12/28/2011 3:27:56 AM PST by heylady
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To: ClearCase_guy

The Westboro Baptists say mean things but do not physically attack children. Apparently, this movement is much larger than the Westboro Baptists and is growing rapidly.


10 posted on 12/28/2011 3:28:20 AM PST by mas cerveza por favor
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To: KantianBurke

You evade my original point, which was to dispute your position on zealotry. Would the zealous Baptists disagree with me on that?


11 posted on 12/28/2011 3:30:44 AM PST by mas cerveza por favor
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To: mas cerveza por favor

The point is that zealotry, when used to attack kids, is wrong. To say such exuberance is fine and dandy provided one worships the “right” creed is nonsensical.


12 posted on 12/28/2011 3:32:28 AM PST by KantianBurke (Where was the Tea Party when Dubya was spending like a drunken sailor?)
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To: mas cerveza por favor

I am sure that they are case convinced as you are that theirs is the “True Faith”.
I’d like to see either of you prove it.


13 posted on 12/28/2011 3:38:28 AM PST by PalmettoMason ("The Constitution only gives people the right to pursue happiness. You have to catch it yourself.")
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To: KantianBurke

What’s wrong is a religious belief that promotes attacking girls who fail to carry out the orders of guru-rabbis. If this belief were held non-zealously, it would still be wrong. Religious error is the problem, not zeal.


14 posted on 12/28/2011 3:39:26 AM PST by mas cerveza por favor
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To: PalmettoMason

case= just. Darned auto-correct strikes again. I wish when it “corrects” me, it would at least be correct, LOL.


15 posted on 12/28/2011 3:42:22 AM PST by PalmettoMason ("The Constitution only gives people the right to pursue happiness. You have to catch it yourself.")
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To: mas cerveza por favor

There’s a distinct difference between ‘zeal’ and ‘fanaticism’, whatever your religious or political persuasion. Even in support of the ‘Truth’ (itself an inherently subjective term) if your ‘zeal’ extends to assaulting everyone who doesn’t share your precise beliefs, you’re either following a false ‘Truth’ or you’ve left its path.

If you’re defining the behaviour of these animals as ‘zeal’, generic or otherwise, then this IS the problem, just as much as or more than ‘falsehood’. It’s not whether their beliefs are or aren’t ‘true’ that’s the issue here. It’s how they’re choosing to express them, and who (in this case an 8 year old girl) they’re choosing to express them to.

As a fellow Catholic, I passionately disagree, for example, with abortion. I may personally be in no doubt that my beliefs here equate to the ‘Truth.’ However, if I then elect to express such opinions by screaming insults and threats at some young girl who I believe has had, or may be considering having, an abortion, I’m not only failing to further my opinions effectively. I’ve left the path of ‘Truth’ and am misrepresenting and contradicting it.


16 posted on 12/28/2011 3:43:55 AM PST by Zajko (Never wrestle with a pig. You'll both get dirty, but the pig likes it.)
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To: PalmettoMason

That can certainly be done and has been done, but the issue at hand is zealotry.

You seem to be arguing for lukewarmness, no matter what the religion. That defies the (zealous) words of Jesus, passed on by John:

“So, because you are lukewarm—neither hot nor cold—I am about to spit you out of my mouth.” Revelation 3:16


17 posted on 12/28/2011 3:51:56 AM PST by mas cerveza por favor
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To: mas cerveza por favor

So says every believer


18 posted on 12/28/2011 3:53:35 AM PST by muir_redwoods (No wonder this administration favors abortion; everything they have done is an abortion)
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To: Zajko

Very well spoken (presented)..


19 posted on 12/28/2011 3:54:40 AM PST by 56newblog (Registered Islamophobe)
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To: Zajko; KantianBurke
KantianBurke attributed this behavior to "zealotry" and concluded, thereby, that zeal is a bad thing. I disagreed.

As a fellow Catholic, I passionately disagree, for example, with abortion. I may personally be in no doubt that my beliefs here equate to the ‘Truth.’ However, if I then elect to express such opinions by screaming insults and threats at some young girl who I believe has had, or may be considering having, an abortion, I’m not only failing to further my opinions effectively. I’ve left the path of ‘Truth’ and am misrepresenting and contradicting it.

Leaving the path of truth is always wrong, regardless of the zeal with which it is done. Again, error is the problem, not zeal.

20 posted on 12/28/2011 4:02:41 AM PST by mas cerveza por favor
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To: muir_redwoods

Your solution is to believe nothing, then? That, in itself, would constitute a belief.


21 posted on 12/28/2011 4:04:39 AM PST by mas cerveza por favor
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To: ClearCase_guy
Sounds like Fred Phelps and the Westboro Baptists have a sister chapter within the ultra-orthodox Jewish community.

The Neturei Karta, who have been denounced by every mainstream Orthodox denomination, were friendly with the Ayatollah Khomeini and are friendly with Ahmadinejad. They held prayer vigils for Arafat and took blood money from his kleptocracy. They are best thought of as the Jewish version of the Westboro Baptist Church which pickets military funerals, complete with gloating messages after terrorist attacks and assaults on other Orthodox Jews.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-bloggers/2825793/posts

22 posted on 12/28/2011 4:06:50 AM PST by expat1000
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To: mas cerveza por favor

I believe the topic was zealotry but feel free to build a straw man


23 posted on 12/28/2011 4:10:21 AM PST by muir_redwoods (No wonder this administration favors abortion; everything they have done is an abortion)
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To: KantianBurke
What say the Nytimese about Islamists vs. Orthodox Jews?

(google) site:www.nytimes.com "Orthodox Jews" About 2,850 results (0.20 seconds)
With articles like the posted article and "Oct 13, 2009 – Brooklyn's ultra-Orthodox Jews, long discouraged from informing on one another, are turning to law enforcement to deal with child molesters . . . ."

(google) site:www.nytimes.com islamism About 807 results (0.13 seconds)
Islamists gets more than 7,000 hits but with articles about such Nytimese feeeeeeeeeeeelings as "Excluding Islamist parties from politics is dangerous; inclusion makes them more moderate. . . . "

(Like in Iran after they took power via elections? Like Hitler ditto?)

Of course I am the first to admit that a thorough examination could result in a balanced conclusion. But I doubt it, it's the New York Times.

The home of legendary and honored employees like Walter Duranty who praised Stalinist Russia and James "Scotty" Reston who was among the leading spokesmen blaming the emerging modern conservative movement for the violence and intolerance that assassinated JFK.

24 posted on 12/28/2011 4:10:57 AM PST by WilliamofCarmichael (If modern America's Man on Horseback is out there, Get on the damn horse already!)
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To: ClearCase_guy

Yes, they are completely unattractive, and carry on in a way that is almost like a parody.

However, I have some doubts about the this particular case, which has made such a splash in the media. The innocent young attrative girl is an ideal image. Yet the story presents few details as to why she is menaced - it just says she believes she is. Other women living in the area have been harassed by the loons, but these ones are either not so photogenic, or don’t want to be in a media campaign.


25 posted on 12/28/2011 4:12:07 AM PST by BlackVeil
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To: KantianBurke

Spitting on a child is wrong.
I do not care what damn holy hat you think you wear.

But then shooting a child with a .308 is worse...


26 posted on 12/28/2011 4:17:48 AM PST by djf (http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-chat/2801220/posts)
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To: mas cerveza por favor

Actually, it is through the zealous that one knows a faith. And nothing compares so dramatically as the concept of “martyr” in the Catholic vs Islamic mindset.

As all zeal (no one’s excluded) can cross the line of truth, goodness and beauty, it is important to have a final “papal” authority imposing orthodoxy. Zeal rightly directed is a wonderful and blessed thing. I often thank God for “our” fanatics... for that’s what the likes of a St. Francis or a Don Bosco were to the ben pensanti of their age: nuisances. Upsetters.


27 posted on 12/28/2011 4:21:23 AM PST by Youaskedforit
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To: mas cerveza por favor

My point is that zeal, or an excess of zeal, can itself cause one to leave the path of ‘Truth’. Where ‘zeal’ manifests itself (as here) to the exclusion of basic human compassion and understanding, as a rejection of the freedom, dignity and beliefs of others, it in and of itself (like most things, when taken to extremes) becomes error, regardless of the nature or validity of the beliefs producing it.

I accept, of course, that the very definition of ‘zeal’ is a subjective one. But then, as previously mentioned, so is the nature of truth. Given that we do not, and never will, all share the same understanding of ‘truth’, there must of necessity be limits imposed to the ‘zeal’ with which any individual can promote his own version of it.

Such limits in no way have to equate to a lack of passion. Strength of belief and passion for a principle are generally good things, but not in themselves incompatible with consideration, respect, tolerance and human decency. It’s when held to the exclusion of these, however, that they become ‘zealotry’ and thus potentially dangerous.


28 posted on 12/28/2011 4:28:08 AM PST by Zajko (Never wrestle with a pig. You'll both get dirty, but the pig likes it.)
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To: BlackVeil
I suspect this is front-page news for the New York Times because: (1) the girl is only eight years old, and (2) her parents are Americans.

This story almost sounds like it's been put out there as a direct, in-your-face response to that infamous advertising campaign recently cancelled by the Israeli government -- which was aimed at American Jews in an attempt to build some kind of relationship between them and their "home."

29 posted on 12/28/2011 4:29:39 AM PST by Alberta's Child ("If you touch my junk, I'm gonna have you arrested.")
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To: djf
Spitting anyone for any reason, but especially in the name of religion is terribly wrong.
30 posted on 12/28/2011 4:31:47 AM PST by Coldwater Creek (He who dwells in the shelter of the Most High will rest in the shadow of the Almighty Psalm 91:)
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To: WilliamofCarmichael
Your right. Where is the articles on Muslim honor killings and stoning of women??? We've had honor killings here in the US, but how many have newspapers, magazines....reported that? I'll bet you compare the women stoned, beaten, killed or spit by islamist to Orthodox Jews, it would be a million to one. new york times and others like them are there only to manipulate ignorant people into believing lies likes “most islamist are peaceful and most Orthodox Jews are violent”. Unfortunately many people fall for the bait. Of course everyone hates seeing a child spit on; they just want to stir up hate for the Jews.
31 posted on 12/28/2011 4:46:29 AM PST by Linda Frances
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To: Zajko
"Even in support of the ‘Truth’ (itself an inherentlysubjective term)"

It's only subjective if one starts from a human perspective. It one bases truth on God's revelation, general or special, it's the only objective thing there is.

32 posted on 12/28/2011 4:50:38 AM PST by circlecity
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To: circlecity

Being human, I am naturally writing from a human perspective. I think it is fair to presume that everyone here, including your good self, is doing likewise. ‘Truth’ as referred to by any of us here thus remains a subjective term.


33 posted on 12/28/2011 5:01:15 AM PST by Zajko (Never wrestle with a pig. You'll both get dirty, but the pig likes it.)
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To: ClearCase_guy; BlackVeil; All

To: expat1000
Anyone who knows nything about neturei karta would not even waste spit on them.

http://www.masada2000.org/Neturei-Karta.html

“JUDENRATS FOR A SECOND HOLOCAUST”

Whenever a convicted mass murderer is finally captured, the first prayer that usually passes over the lips of a Jews is, “May the murderer not be Jewish!” Even the case of David “Son of Sam” Berkowitz, the so-called “.44 Calibre Killer,” caused a degree of consternation among the New York City’s Jewish community. Fortunately, it turned out that Berkowitz may have had a Jewish father, but he converted to Christianity long before he went on his rampages! And, there might even be a kind word to say about Arab terrorist, Yasir Arafat... “At least he wasn’t Jewish!”
And then there was Neturei Karta!

Neturei Karta is Aramaic for “Guardians of the City” or “Guardians of the Gates.” Others say it’s Aramaic for “Nut Kases!” They are a group of Ultra-Orthodox pseudo-Jewish heretics who reject all forms of Zionism and actively oppose the State of Israel. They claim to have a membership of about 5,000 but it is probably one zero less... about 500. However, what they lack in numbers, they make up in enthusiasm and outrageous behavior. Even though these freaks may act as if they’re raving lunatics, they may actually be quite sane for, in both words and actions, this cult-like flock of devotees really do believe they are doing God’s work!

The Neturei Karta were originally set up as a splinter breakaway movement in 1938, mainly by fanatical ultra-Orthodox Hungarian Jews. They are best known for marching arm in arm with Arafat and endorsing every anti-Israel terrorist and anti-Semite on the planet. They also want Israel destroyed and does not care if a Second Holocaust must take place in order to achieve this lofty goal. Israel, they feel, should be wiped off the map for it should never have been re-established by man but, rather, by the Messiah when He finally does come. In more general terms they also hate Israel because so many of her Jews are secularists and some eat pork!

Neturei Karta is driven by intense hatred not only toward secularist Jews but for all orthodox and observant Jews who happen not to share its ideas. It openly calls for Israel to be destroyed and it quite visibly supports the worst genocidal anti-Semites on the planet from Arab terrorists from Fatah head, Yasir Arafat, and Hamas leader, Sheikh Yassin, to, more recently, Iran’s worldwide Islamic terror funder and Holocaust denier, Mamoud Ahmadinejad!

In total number Neturei Karta may represent merely one-half of one percent of the total ultra-orthodox rabbinical community but they seem to get 99½% of all the attention when enemies of Israel look for “useful idiot” Jews to parade before the media! In the past few years, members of this extreme messianic movement have increased their involvement in anti-Israeli activities, participating in demonstrations calling for Israel’s annihilation. This is precisely why Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, president of the Iranian Republic of Iran who has called for the annihilation of Israel, invited Neturei Karta spokesmen to his December 2006 Holocaust denial conference! It is also why so many anti-Israel, pro-”Palestinian,” Holocaust-denying and other openly anti-Semitic internet websites feature, quote or refer to Neturei Karta! The hyper-links listed below are but a tiny fraction of those sites: [Our web host only allows us 200MB of storage space on his server!]
**************************************************

When you see “Haredi Jews”, you might not realize that the press night call them Haredi, but all Haredi are not naturei karta. They attended homodinejad’s Holocaust denial conference with the likes of david duke.
They live to cause trouble for Israel but a backlash is coming as we speak,
DO NOT TRUST anything that even remotely suggests that these people are anything but evil. They have no place in legitimate Jewish society.
They are kapos as bad as those who existed during the Holocaust.

3 posted on Wednesday, December 28, 2011 7:19:51 AM by MestaMachine (obama kills)


34 posted on 12/28/2011 5:01:42 AM PST by MestaMachine (obama kills)
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To: KantianBurke

Extremists are bad....period.


35 posted on 12/28/2011 5:06:34 AM PST by nuconvert ( Khomeini promised change too // Hail, Chairman O)
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To: Zajko
"I think it is fair to presume that everyone here, including your good self, is doing likewise."

And that would be a very worng assumption. Christianity teaches that God is the object and we are just subjects and that is how we percieve reality. My presuppositions start with revelation, thus my conception of truth is a purely objective metaphysic. As with any Christian. It is only the world which views realitly from a self centered inherently subjective vantage point.

36 posted on 12/28/2011 5:08:37 AM PST by circlecity
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To: Zajko

Defined religious truth is not subjective among Catholics and principle of generic zealotry need not be considered subjective among anybody since zeal can serve any cause. Zeal manifests itself here in the service of falsehood, namely, that rabbis posses divine authority define a universal dress code. They do not, yet they violently attempt to seize this authority in the name of religion.

The girl dressed modestly but apparently did not comply with precise, exacting requirements. People within a group may agree to dress a certain way but the rabbis do not possess God-given authority to make up and enforce exacting rules upon everyone. Such pridefulness and megalomania constitutes diabolical falsehood, objectively condemned by Jesus.


37 posted on 12/28/2011 5:12:11 AM PST by mas cerveza por favor
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To: dennisw; Cachelot; Nix 2; veronica; Catspaw; knighthawk; Alouette; Optimist; weikel; Lent; GregB; ..
Middle East and terrorism, occasional political and Jewish issues Ping List. High Volume

If you’d like to be on or off, please FR mail me.

..................

38 posted on 12/28/2011 5:19:58 AM PST by SJackson (The Pilgrims¬óDoing the jobs Native Americans wouldn't do !)
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To: mas cerveza por favor

“but the rabbis do not possess God-given authority to make up and enforce exacting rules upon everyone. “

I see. Only your Priest has that authority. Right?


39 posted on 12/28/2011 5:28:59 AM PST by battletank
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To: ClearCase_guy
Sounds like Fred Phelps and the Westboro Baptists have a sister chapter within the ultra-orthodox Jewish community. Question: “How can we make our religion look really, really bad to the rest of the world?”

Exactly. Either the rest of the ultra-Orthodox community puts a lid on these schmucks, or the Israeli police should get really serious about enforcing laws against assault.

40 posted on 12/28/2011 5:33:56 AM PST by PapaBear3625 (During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act.)
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To: circlecity

It would be a wrong assumption that you are writing from a human perspective? That’s a very big claim to make, if you’ll forgive my saying so.

Even amongst Christians, we differ in our precise interpretations of Truth: and not everyone can be presumed to be a Catholic, or indeed a Christian, even here on FR. You may well have presuppositions concerning revelation, but others will have variant ones: often likewise held validity and honestly and in the belief and hope of salvation. It’s not my place, or yours, to be their ultimate Judge: each of us can only strive to defend and live up to what we believe, to the best of our ability, whilst praying for forgiveness for those areas in which we will inevitably err.

My original point was, and remains, that whilst you, I or anyone else posting here may have differing beliefs or interpretations as to the nature of God’s Revelation, how we choose to pursue and defend our beliefs should be defined by (or in time may itself define) the nature of the beliefs themselves.


41 posted on 12/28/2011 5:34:40 AM PST by Zajko (Never wrestle with a pig. You'll both get dirty, but the pig likes it.)
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To: battletank

Has a priest ever tried to enforce exacting rules upon how you could dress like in the article?

Rules against killing babies and gay marriage are universal principles of human nature, not the inventions of Catholic priests.


42 posted on 12/28/2011 5:36:58 AM PST by mas cerveza por favor
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To: mas cerveza por favor
“So, because you are lukewarm—neither hot nor cold—I am about to spit you out of my mouth.” Revelation 3:16

There is a difference between zeal and thuggery. A passionate sermon about the value of modesty is zeal. Assault and battery is thuggery.

43 posted on 12/28/2011 5:38:05 AM PST by PapaBear3625 (During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act.)
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To: mas cerveza por favor

“the rabbis do not possess God-given authority to make up and enforce exacting rules upon everyone”

Neither these rabbis, nor I, nor you, nor anyone else.


44 posted on 12/28/2011 5:39:47 AM PST by Zajko (Never wrestle with a pig. You'll both get dirty, but the pig likes it.)
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To: mas cerveza por favor
Has a priest ever tried to enforce exacting rules upon how you could dress like in the article?

Yes. When I went to Catholic school. Not since.

45 posted on 12/28/2011 5:43:44 AM PST by PapaBear3625 (During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act.)
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To: Zajko
It’s not my place, or yours, to be their ultimate Judge: each of us can only strive to defend and live up to what we believe, to the best of our ability, whilst praying for forgiveness for those areas in which we will inevitably err.

This is not logical or Catholic. Logically, there can be, at most, only one true faith. All other faiths must be false to the extent they differ from that one true faith. It is the place of a Catholic to faithfully represent what the Church teaches, namely, that the Catholic religion is the one true faith and that its genuine teaching does not err.

46 posted on 12/28/2011 5:46:44 AM PST by mas cerveza por favor
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To: Zajko
"Even amongst Christians, we differ in our precise interpretations of Truth"

No, we differ in our interpretations of revelation but that doesn't change the objective nature of the truth of revelation any more than scientists differing in their opinion of certain temporal matters changes the objective truth of the creation which underlies them. God said his word was truth - the fact some may get it wrong doesn't change this objective fact. The rest of your post has nothing to do with the inherent objectivity of revelation as truth, either general or specific. Thus, truth is not subjective.

47 posted on 12/28/2011 5:54:29 AM PST by circlecity
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To: Zajko
the rabbis do not possess God-given authority to make up and enforce exacting rules upon everyone”

Zajko Neither these rabbis, nor I, nor you, nor anyone else.

The Prophets, Christ, and Apostles possessed divine authority to reveal doctrine. The Catholic Church possesses authority to define previously revealed doctrine.

48 posted on 12/28/2011 5:54:53 AM PST by mas cerveza por favor
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To: mas cerveza por favor

Indeed: I’m not quite sure what is it that you disagree on here? We can all, as I said, defend and promote what we believe. Faithfully and firmly. HOW we do this is important, however, and must remain in keeping with the (quintessentially Catholic) principles of respect, compassion and humility, as well as an awareness that others who may be doing likewise in promoting their own beliefs, are from their own perspective also promoting truth. This doesn’t mean ‘accept that their version of Truth is equally valid’. It means ‘show some respect, and don’t forget they’re trying to do what’s right from their own viewpoint, just as you are’ - and remembering we’re allultimately human and may be subject to error in our understanding and interpretation of God’s revelations or will.

Passing judgement, however (as opposed to promoting what we believe to be Truth) is neither your business nor mine (’judge not, lest ye be judged?’), and in my own experience, I’ve found that others tend te be more receptive to Truth when it’s presented clearly and humbly from that perspective.


49 posted on 12/28/2011 5:59:48 AM PST by Zajko (Never wrestle with a pig. You'll both get dirty, but the pig likes it.)
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To: mas cerveza por favor

“The Prophets, Christ, and Apostles possessed divine authority to reveal doctrine. The Catholic Church possesses authority to define previously revealed doctrine.”

As far as I am aware, you are not a Prophet, the Christ, an Apostle, or otherwise in possession of Divine Authority, and neither is anyone else, on this thread or anywhere else in the world today. With regards to the authority of the Catholic Church, ‘defining previously revealed doctrine’ is an entirely different matter to having ‘authority to make up and enforce exacting rules on everyone’ which was the wording of your quote.


50 posted on 12/28/2011 6:07:14 AM PST by Zajko (Never wrestle with a pig. You'll both get dirty, but the pig likes it.)
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