Worry not; Ma'am. For there are 50,000 of us to counter them!
You sound like the vast majority of Mormons I have met, whether living in an area with a large LDS population, attending college in Utah, or working for Mormons early in my career, and that is why I’m disappointed in the small cluster of bigots who make these threads go on.
Worry not; Ma'am. For there are 50,000 of us to counter them!
Zechariah 4:10
"Who despises the day of small things? Men will rejoice when they see the plumb line in the hand of Zerubbabel. "(These seven are the eyes of the LORD, which range throughout the earth.)"
Did it ever occur to you that Mormons might be lying to you? Lying for the Lord is common in Mormonism as a way to make the LDS church look good. I was lied to by Mormon missionaries when I was ‘investigating’ the Mormon church (pre internet days). I was lied to by leadership about LDS history and spent almost a year really researching it which is why I left. The leaders were lying to the members.
It is not bigotry to post the writings of LDS leaders which is most of what we do.
Do your own research, Mormons aren’t Christians - their theology precludes it. In a case like Jeff Head, he (like most LDS) use Christian terms but mean something very different. Here is an example of how the LDS twist things.
http://www.utlm.org/newsletters/no115.htm#lying
http://www.mormonthink.com/lying.htm
http://www.exmormon.org/lying.htm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gKt7ozdKeBk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9zA-rZQB-xQ
http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,377612
http://archives.exmormon.org/test2
http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,356481
From an earlier post of mine about lying in Mormonism. Telling half truths is also lying.
The LDS don’t do systematic theology. For years the closest thing was Bruce R. McConkie’s “Mormon Doctrine”. Now that has been thrown under the bus because some of his statements are embarassing to the LDS church even though they have not reputiated anything said in there and it was approved by the Prophet and Apostles and published by the main LDS publishing company (an LDS version of nihil obstat or imprimitur). The LDS use manuals, published every few years, on a rotation for Sunday School, Priesthood/Relief Society and their High School and College religion classes.
They are also discouraged from researching on their own or reading old ‘primary sources’. Sadly, they are spoon fed theology in a manner that keeps them from looking too deep. My ‘crime’ as it were was going beyond the manuals given to me and actually trying to make sense and research LDS history and doctrine in order to prove the ‘antis’ were lying.As to why I lied about LDS beliefs (or dissembled), there is a constantly used phrase/idea that comes down from the leadership of “every member a missionary”. It means that every member is to try to convert people to Mormonism. Couple that with the other oftused meme of “don’t do anything that makes ‘the Church’ look bad” and you have an interesting combination. The “why” gets down to these. It is easier to lie or omit things or twist words than it is to explain what the LDS really believe and risk losing a potential convert or have someone go away thinking less than glowing things about the LDS church.
Every member is expected to find ‘investigators’ (people who would be interested in converting who take the missionary discussions - similar to RCIA). There is also a lot of people who hear things about beliefs but don’t know enough to know what the LDS are saying, that they use different meanings for terms, even though the LDS usually know that Christians mean different things. A typical exchange could go like this...
non - LDS - “I have a lot of Mormon friends, and they are nice people, but don’t Mormons believe Jesus and Satan are brothers?”
LDS - No! We don’t believe that at all! Jesus is the only begotten Son of God! Joseph Smith saw Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ and they said that all other churches had some problems and Joseph needed to start a Church that was the same as the one when Jesus Christ was on the Earth. Why don’t you come over for dinner and we will have the missionaries talk to you? There is a set of 6 discussions that they give that shows what we believe.
non-LDS - “Well, ok, but I read somewhere that Mormons believe they will become Gods”
LDS - “That was probably written by someone who has a grudge against the Church. They probably are one of the ones who gets paid to badmouth the Church or someone who couldn’t live by the principles of the Church so they left or they were offended by someone in their ward.
Ok, lets parse this. Notice how many times “the Church” is used. For the LDS it is all about “the Church”. LDS ‘testimonies’ often start out with “I know the Church is true”.
Then there is the automatic denial that Jesus and Satan are brothers. We saw it on this a thread the other day even. Now, all LDS know that their church teaches Jesus and Satan are spirit brothers. So why would you get a resounding “NO”? Because it makes their theology look silly. By stating “No” the LDS are lying to you, but they are thinking “Well they aren’t flesh brothers, just spirit brothers like we all are, Jesus is our Elder brother”. The other day an LDS came on one of these threads and stated “Jesus and Lucifer aren’t brothers, as if by Mary!”. Notice the subtlety of it. “As if by Mary” implying they aren’t physical brothers (which no one claimed). But they left out That Lucifer was the second born and Jesus was the firstborn of the spirit children.
Next we come to what would appear to be a rebuttal to the claim Jesus and Satan are brothers. “Jesus is the only begotten Son of God!” what they are not telling you is that they mean it in a literal sense. Jesus and Satan are SPIRIT brothers (like all of us) but Jesus is God’s physical son, God came down, had sex with Mary and conceived Jesus. So it isn’t a rebuttal at all and the LDS know that. They are intentionally twisting words to make you think they don’t believe Jesus and Satan are Spirit brothers.
Next Phrase - “Joseph Smith saw Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ and they said that all other churches had some problems and Joseph needed to start a Church that was the same as the one when Jesus Christ was on the Earth.” This is referring to the “First Vision” (of which there are several contradictory accounts) and the Great Apostasy. The LDS will tone down things said about other Christians. In the first vision account, Smith isn’t told that other churches ‘had problems’ he was told “I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt http://lds.org/library/display/0,4945,104-1-3-4,00.html
“All wrong”, “Corrupt” and Creeds an abomination are not the same as “some problems” and the LDS know that. But they will soften it in order to not scare people off or to put the LDS church in a ‘better light’.
Next - about becoming Gods. Notice the LDS response is to go down a rabbit hole, rather than addressing the comment. Instead they lead the person to believe that the source was unreliable, or written by someone who had something to gain (money) or a former Mormon with a grudge. The question itself isn’t even addressed (lying by omission). It also causes the person to think that they might be wrong and that the LDS don’t believe that, even though the LDS person knows they do.
Finally, the invitation to meet with the missionaries. There is an assumption by many that these are people who know more about Mormonism than the average member and that isn’t true either. Most men and quite a few women serve LDS missions (I nearly did). They don’t have special knowledge. They also don’t tell you is the goal of those 6 discussions is to get you baptized Mormon and there is pressure put on you to read the Book of Mormon, pray about it, make commitments and convert. Those 6 discussions aren’t just a summary of LDS beliefs, they are the requirements for conversion and that is their goal. But they don’t tell you that, they make it sound like this is just a friendly way of talking to knowledgeable people about what the LDS believe.
Also, there is the doctrine of ‘line upon line, precept upon precept’ or “milk before meat”, that coverts are only told doctrines when they are spiritually ready to hear them. The missionary discussions are the barest of milk. You learn one set of things in them, and then after you convert you start to learn the rest of LDS theology. Then after a year of faithful membership (sometimes more) you get to go to the LDS temple and learn the ‘meat’ doctrines and are sworn to secrecy (used to have to swear blood oaths).
IOW, you're intolerant of some religious expression on these threads.
Doesn't "intolerance" = bigotry?
Tell, us, Pollster? Where you do you go for some elitist self-issued license that allows you to officially register...
...displeasure...
...accusations...
...liberal-like labels...
...all the while expressing complete intolerance?