Posted on 01/31/2012 7:54:43 PM PST by sukhoi-30mki
European death machinery is exclusively for export. They depend on the US Taxpayer for their defense.
Dma, “European death machinery”
Hug a tree, fly that tree.
Dumb comments abound.
R.
I don’t understand your comment. Please explain?
With the sukhoi-30mki and Rafale, India went for a high-higher approach. These are expensive aircraft, equivalent to the F-15. Is India still pursuing the Tejas for the ight Combat Aircraft (LCA) program?
Not necessarily. The Rafale (and the rest of the MMRCA contenders) are lighter/smaller than SU-30 and F-15 and would at least on paper, have lower operating costs and higher sortie rates. So it’s essentially a high-tech work horse. Which is why it was called the Medium-MRCA aircraft. The SU-30, while having a heavy payload, has a significantly larger radar cross section and an older array of Russian built strike munitions.
The Tejas is still being pursued albeit in a reworked Mk2 variant which uses the GE F-414 engine. You could say the Tejas-Rafale-SU30 form a light-medium-heavy combination. The reason why the MMRCA deal was pursued and could in fact be jacked up in numbers is the continued uncertainty over the Tejas as well as the possible need for cover for possible delays with the Russian PAK FA fighter.
Dman, “I dont understand your comment. Please explain?”
Too little back checkand, to much mouth. Got you wrong Dman, forgive SVP
Rab
Hi Sukhoi!
Great post.
So, what is your opinion on the French sharing the Rafale technology with the Chicoms eventually?
Also, will they sell to the Pakistanis?
Keep the good work up!
Firstly, it’s unlikely that the Pakis will be able to buy the Rafale since its very expensive for their pockets and secondly, Indian pressure would be enormous.
There are factors which hinder a sale of the Rafale to China-
1. The EU embargo is still officially in place and even if it falls, selling overtly offensive systems to Beijing would provoke heavy domestic and regional European opposition.
2. Hawking such a system to the Chicoms will result to France running the risk of alienating a number of pro-Western Asian powers among them- India, South Korea, Singapore, Malaysia and Australia (in addition to Japan), all of which have strong defense ties with Paris. I’m willing to take a calculated bet and say that a successful Rafale deal in India could open the floodgates in Malaysia and possibly Vietnam, which is looking at non-Russian fighters.
3. Does China really need technology from a fighter like the Rafale or Eurofighter, both are at the end of the day 4.5 generation aircraft? The Chinese have progressed to 5th gen aircraft and are rationalising their current fleet around the J-11 and J-10 (ala. the US F-15/F-16).
HOWEVER that doesn’t mean that the French or the rest of Europe wouldn’t want to sell to China-that will very likely happen in this decade.
There is very little capability difference to decisively separate the Rafale and the Eurofighter. The EF is more oriented to the air to air role with a larger nose, higher engine thrust and an airframe which was designed around ensuring maximum carriage of air to air missiles (4 BVR weapons at all times).
But the Rafale is not necessarily inferior-it’s smaller (and some say more stealthy) and its close-coupled canards would help in a low-altitude dogfight. And in the days of datalinks and AEW, the RBE-2’s range to utilise the Meteor or the Mica is not leagues behind the Typhoon. And assuming it get’s an engine upgrade, it’s high speed/high altitude performance would also improve.
But that’s beyond the point; both fighters could only do so much against a genuinely stealthy fighter (and we don’t know if the J-20 will turn into that) since their basic configuration is essentially the same. As Spetznaz said a while back-they are twins.
Against most modern fighters Eurofighters would totally dominate the air warfare. Rafale is a damn good plane no doubt, but it wouldn't be dominating the airspace. Rafale would have a tough time against the latest block of UAE F-16E/Fs (with AGP-80) or even Chinese Sukhois. Rafale is a VERY EXPENSIVE plane that does not give any massive advantage to justify its enormously exorbitant cost.
Against most modern fighters Eurofighters would totally dominate the air warfare. Rafale is a damn good plane no doubt, but it wouldn't be dominating the airspace. Rafale would have a tough time against the latest block of UAE F-16E/Fs (with AGP-80) or even Chinese Sukhois. Rafale is a VERY EXPENSIVE plane that does not give any massive advantage to justify its enormously exorbitant cost.
And if low altitude low speed dog fighter is what India was looking for, a Mig 29/35 (or maybe even LCA Tejas) would have very easily done the job instead of an out of the world expensive Rafale.
I had a feeling Sarkozy would Carla Brunie to clinch this deal. Otherwise I don't see any merit to this deal.
I doubt that China would be interested in buying. They want to make their own. The only interest China would have in the Rafael would be in stealing some technology.
The Rafale is said to be supercruise capable-the French navy certified there M variant as capable of doing so with four Mica missiles and a centreline tank. Now that figure would be lower than the Eurofighter, but it highlights the narrow gap. And anyway, neither would supercruise with a meaningful strike or even full air superiority complement capability.
Again radar range is not everything-the RBE-2, in its current PESA variant is said to have more flexible air to ground modes, superior scan volumes and multi-target tracking as well as lower probability of interception capabilities as far as material that comes on various military forums go.
Is the Rafale expensive-so is the Eurofighter? Not only is the latter more expensive, but it’s future upgrades are far less assured since the four consortium members have shown little inclination to do anything about it. The Eurofighter’s AESA radar has only flown on a test rig and the less said about integration of strike munitions, the better. The only thing that the EF has is lots of PR about its agility. The Rafale at least has two assured upgrade paths for which the French will have to bear a good chunk of the costs for the simple reason its their only fighter.
I hark back to what I’ve thought about this deal for about the past two years or so. We need to look at the MMRCA from the perspective of where it fits into the IAF; If you are getting the PAK FA, the Eurofighter’s air to air capability becomes redundant. However what the IAF currently lacks and will lack is a truly multirole mudmover with good kinematics-something which the F-16 was originally kitted out to be. The Jaguar, Mig-27 and even the upgraded the Mig-29s are all one-dimensional jets. The Mirage-2000s are low on range and the SU-30’s strike capability is limited by its huge size and the age of Russian air to ground munitions (unlike the more versatile F-15E). That’s where the Rafale would come in. Not to mention strategic benefits which the French are more likely to offer (nuclear/missile/space).
The last thing I’d suspect is the Carla Bruni connection!! For one Silvio Berlusconi who was around till about a year ago could have activated his own connections and it would have been politically suicidal even in the treachorous world of Indian politics. All that being said, I would have been perfectly happy with the Typhoon as well but only from an basic operational view.
The choice of the Rafale was the best choice for India considering what the nation wanted (more on that later), and it should also be noted that not only was it the L1 of the two airplanes, but that it was also the preferred choice by the Indian Airforce.
Before I go into why the Rafale was a better choice for India than the Typhoon, please also consider all the competitions where the Rafale has been pitted against the Eurofighter Typhoon. There is India (where the Rafale won). There is Switzerland where the Rafale scored the highest in technical parameters against the Gripen, the F-18E/F, and (yes) the Eurofighter Typhoon (the Gripen won due to cost, but the Swiss airforce rated the Rafale the best there was a post I made a couple of months ago when the decision was made where I linked that analysis). Also please look at which aircraft won the Singapore and the South Korea decisions - when it comes to technical evaluation between the Rafale and the Eurofighter (both losing out to the F-15SG and F-15K respectively due to political and other reasons).
Apparently in the Swiss evaluations the Rafale scored 7/1 against the Eurofighter in BVR and 8/0 in WVR.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.