Posted on 02/05/2012 2:36:57 PM PST by TigerLikesRooster
“It was ironic that Prussia was basically a vassal state of Polish kingdom at one point.”
Prussia is an incredible study in bootstrapping a modest sized, resource poor backwater into a major power. The real empire builder was not Frederick the Great though, it was his tight fisted, nation building at all costs father, Frederick William I, and to a lesser extent his grandfather. Grandfather was adept at Imperial politics and advanced the status of Prussian rulers from ‘margrave’ to ‘king. Father made the nation solvent, secure, profitable and militarily strong. Son parleyed all of those achievements to make Prussia a major power, contributing military genius to the political and economic foundations of his forbears. Almost lost it all however in the Seven Years War, and was probably saved from utter ruin only by the timely death of the anti-Frederick Czarina Elizabeth, and the ascension of Prussophile Czar Peter III.
IMO, there are very interesting parallels between the relationship of Phillip of Macedon and Alexander, and Frederick William I and Frederick. In each case, the sober and diligent groundwork of the father is often overlooked for the flashier and more dramatic achievements of the son.
To get a feel for Prussia’s meteoric rise under these men, in teeth of Austrian, French and Saxon dominance, imagine the Republic of Mexico going from its present state to being the dominant military and political power in the Americas, all within the space of three generations.
I also believe that these partitions, by removing a buffer state between the Germanics and the Russians, these partitions directly lead to World War I.
it also drew Austro-Hungary and Russia's efforts away from smashing the feeble Moslem state of Ottoman Turkey.
Finally, the mindset of the Germans in WWI and WWII was directly from Prussian mindset imposed on other Germans who didn't have the same level of militaristic mindset.
the Teutonic knights, Krzyżacy, were invited by Konrad of Mazowia to help him battle the pagan Samogitans and other Baltic tribes in the 1200s. But by the 1300s they had their own state and were threatening Poland itself.
Then in 1410 the Poles, Lithuanians (now Christianized) and the Rusyns destroyed the knights at the battle of Grunwald (Tannenberg in German) and they were subdued, nearly destroyed. The Poles and Lithuanians recovered their territories.
Again do note that in the 19th and 20th centuries this was cast in an ethnic light of the evil Germans fighting against the noble Slavs and Baltics, but the truth was a lot more complex than that -- there were people of different ethnicities fighting on both sides and while the Teuotnic knights did slash and burn and kill, they also brought culture, city laws etc.
Anyway, then the Poles had a chance when the Teutonic knight leader converted to Calvinism -- they could have swallowed up the Teutonic state as it was no longer a monastry state. But the Poles were at that time ruled by a Swedish King who was the uncle to the Teutonic "prince"....
chances lost, chances lost....
In warsaw on every street corner there is a memorial that says "on this spot Nazis killed xx amount of people in 1939/1944"
And then you see pictures of what Warsaw was like after the Nazis finished with it -- rubble, rubble, everything destroyed, churches, building, even the cobblestones ripped up. The only thing standing was the Prudential building (still standing on ul. Świętokrzyska) and then you come to a stretch east of the cemetary -- and there is no rubble there, just scorched earth -- this was the Jewish ghetto.
Even if you travel to the Polish countryside, go to remote villages like Łomnica (south of Kraków) and in small passes you'll see monuments to the numbers of people killed by the Germans.
I've asked my wife how can Poles forgive this? She says it is hard, but even harder for those who lived through the war -- for those folks 80+ now), even hearing German is like hearing sounds of hell.
there's a story of a Polish jewish lady who was but a child when in Treblinka. She survived and became an author and then in the 70s moved to Germany (don't ask me why) and she was on an crowded escalator and the German guy behind her wanted to move ahead and he was initially polite, but then got impatient and finally, rudely said "Raus".
immediately her hands went up in a gesture of surrender... the man behind went red with embarassment (he knew) and he apologized.
I think we should not blame the present-day Germans for the sins of their grandfathers, but I think it is so hard to forgive -- I find it hard to forgive and I'm not even Polish.
The Germans tried to obliterate Poland from existence -- Christians and Jews. They aimed to reduce it to utter rubble and erase it from memory. And they were coldly efficient in this - if they won at Stalingrad, they would have done this, just as the Mongols wiped out the states of Bactria and Sogdiana.
I hope the Germans stop thinking of themselves as one people which they aren’t — the Swabians and Bavarians are closer to the SchwiezerDeutsch and Austrians than to the northerners...
Well We are just going to have to disagree on the Kingdom of Prussia, and on marriage. I married my spouse, not her culture.
As for the Kingdom of Prussia frustrating the Austro-Hungarian Empire and the Russian Empire (simultaneously), I suppose that is a testament to the old redneck addage about the size of the fight in the dog, not the size of the dog in the fight.
I would also note that the 18th century Kingdom of Prussia was no more reflected in the Third Reich than the Founding Fathers are presently reflected in contemporary Washington D.C.
“Exact, children, exact!”
Not really -- from the naming of the Junkers to the usage of the Teutonic emblem tells you how much it was reflected
secondarily, from a historic point of view, the Nazis used the idea that Polish territory really belonged to GErmany via Prussia.
No, really. The Austrian, Catholic background Hitler distrusted and to a great extent displaced and intentionally diluted the Prussian, Protestant background Junker officer corps. There is as much link and ideological continuity between Frederick the Great and Adolf Hitler as there is between Thomas Jefferson and Barack Obama. Indeed, Frederick the Great offered physical sanctuary and new homes to both Jews and Christians fleeing persecution.
National emblems are national emblems and they persist past the fall or subversion of governments and the eclipse of the original polity’s ethos and objectives. The Union Jack is a perfect example, with two subject Celt nationalities’ emblems incorporated into the dominant St. George’s cross. The Celtic emblems mean nothing, beyond the trophy marks of subject colonies. Our own national flag represents a form of government which the Founding Fathers would neither have recognized nor approved. Closer to home in answering this vapid argument would be asserting that the Polish bi-color is a symbol of communism. They did not call it the “Warsaw Pact” for nothing after all . . . Perhaps you see how inane the assertion of continuity based on old emblems is. Perhaps not.
Polish borders are always what Poland is able to seize or hold at the moment. Poland has had large borders and small. Historically a not very astute or organized polity, Poland has insisted on playing the game of power politics and empire with no defensible borders between two more virile, organized and accomplished cultures. The consequences follow.
Points to your spouse for training you well in the nurtured grievances of a national mythology. Doubtless if you had “married into the culture” of Mexico you could argue for Azatlan with similar coherence, conviction and logical integrity.
Yes, and points to your spouse for nuturing in your a remarkably atavistic swagger-stick condescension.
Imagine your potential for megalomania if only you had married into “a Pre-Aryan culture” and...oh, wait a minute...
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