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To: Kansas58

” You can not find a single Founder, President, or early Member of Congress who disagrees with me.James Madison, the Father of the Constitution, clearly agrees with me.”

John Jay, who later went on to become the first Chief Justice of the U.S. Supreme Court, “Permit me to hint, whether it would be wise and reasonable to provide a strong check to the admission of Foreigners into the administration of our national Government; and to declare expressly that the Commander in Chief of the American army shall not be given to nor devolve on, any but a natural born Citizen.”

John Adams, 1776:

On the other hand it could never be our Duty to unite with Britain in too great a humiliation with of France. That our real if not our nominal Independence would consist in our Neutrality. If We united with either Nation, in any future War, We must become too subordinate and dependent on that nation, and should be involved in all European Wars as We had been hitherto. That foreign Powers would find means to corrupt our People to influence our Councils, and in fine We should be little better than Puppetts danced on the Wires of the Cabinetts of Europe. We should be the Sport of European Intrigues and Politicks.

Vattel`s Law of Nations, “...natural-born citizens, are those born in the country, of parents who are citizens. “


94 posted on 02/06/2012 7:26:37 PM PST by Para-Ord.45
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To: Para-Ord.45
And what was John Jay's definition of a “Natural Born Citizen” and how did his definition differ with mine?

Natural Born Citizen means Citizen at Birth. Do you have any quotes from John Jay that say otherwise? I sincerely doubt it or you would have posted such by now.

Also, Vattel does not matter at all in this debate. Madison says CLEARLY that citizenship issues had not been defined in detail, by the Constitution.

That Courts could look to Vattel, long ago, prior to Congressional action, prior to the 14th and 15th Amendments, means nothing at all, as a Constitutional matter.

Supreme Court decisions based on Natural Law, Common Law or the Law of Nations or Vattel can be made MOOT by a simple act of Congress, period.

This is how the law works.

Not every Supreme Court decision is based on Constituional Law, SCOTUS can and often does act as the last word on non-Constitutional issues.

Again, in such cases, a simple Act of Congress is all we need to invalidate a prior ruling of SCOTUS.

Congress has acted SEVERAL TIMES, since Vattel’s writings, to further define citizenship -— Just as James Madison desired that Congress act.

97 posted on 02/06/2012 7:36:28 PM PST by Kansas58
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To: Para-Ord.45
John Adams, 1776:

On the other hand it could never be our Duty to unite with Britain in too great a humiliation with of France. That our real if not our nominal Independence would consist in our Neutrality. If We united with either Nation, in any future War, We must become too subordinate and dependent on that nation, and should be involved in all European Wars as We had been hitherto. That foreign Powers would find means to corrupt our People to influence our Councils, and in fine We should be little better than Puppetts danced on the Wires of the Cabinetts of Europe. We should be the Sport of European Intrigues and Politicks.

Vattel`s Law of Nations, “...natural-born citizens, are those born in the country, of parents who are citizens. “

I will point out that John Adams, (and Later, his son John Quincy Adams) LIVED with Charles Dumas when he was trying to obtain European Support for the American cause. I believe he lived in the Home of Charles Dumas (The guy who published copies of Vattel's Law of Nation, with his own notes included specifically for the American Cause, in 1775) for years, so the odds are very good that He and Charles Dumas had explicit conversations on the subject.

Charles Dumas was also retained by the Continental Congress (He was paid, but Lamented John Adams, not nearly enough) to act on Behalf of the United States in Europe.

Reprinted from Benjamin Franklin, The Works of Benjamin Franklin . . ., ed. Jared Sparks, 10 vols. (Boston: Hilliard, Gray, and Co., 183640), 8:162-67. Extract with postscript, in the hand of Dumas (The Hague, Algemeen Ryksarchief: C. W. F. Dumas Collection) . 1 Dumas' draft of the first of these letters, bearing his endorsement "17 May 1775, Minute de ma Lettre a Mr. B. Franklin," is in DLC, C. W. F. Dumas Collection his letter of June 30 is in PPAmP, Franklin Papers. Charles William Frederic Dumas (1721-96), of French ancestry, German birth, and Dutch residence, was a man of broad intellectual interests whom Franklin had apparently met on a visit to the Netherlands in 1766, which led to a correspondence that extended from 1768 to Franklin's death. Dumas, whose long service in behalf of Congress began at this time, enjoyed no formal recognition and was irregularly compensated until October 1785 when provision was finally made for his salary retroactively from April 1775. After Franklin arrived in Paris in December 1776, Dumas was employed in a variety of duties, particularly in the supply and outfitting of American ships in Dutch and French ports. Later he assisted John Adams as translator and secretary and for years functioned virtually as an American charge d'affaires at The Hague, although he never acquired an official diplomatic title. See Benjamin Franklin, The Papers of Benjamin Franklin, ed. Leonard W. Labaree (New Haven: Yale University Press, 1959-)

245 posted on 02/07/2012 9:46:42 AM PST by DiogenesLamp (Partus Sequitur Patrem)
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