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To: PeaRidge; rockrr
Our guys, believing in liberty and justice for all ...

Back to where we started. If you don't see that, there's no hope for you. "Your guys" didn't believe in liberty and justice for all. Not many people did back then, but we can at least put in a good word for the few who went a little further than the others.

Along with it died the concept of a nation governed by men enlightened with the concept of liberty, not egalitarianism.

C'mon, egalitarianism came in with Andrew Jackson. You can't break history down like that -- Southerners for liberty and against egalitarianism. Liberty and equality and slavery are pretty well mixed together in American history, and that includes Southern history.

69 posted on 03/22/2012 3:16:05 PM PDT by x
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To: x
Pardon the length of this but I see that your understanding of liberty, as granted under the Constitution, and antebellum egalitarianism is decidedly incomplete, so let's go back to school, X.

Keeping in mind that although a French term, egalitarian thought was evident at the time of Plato, the Apostles, and all the way through the dark ages.

You hark en to Jackson, who was not an egalitarian by any stretch.

As posted earlier, I think Calhoun's speech of 1848 shows more than anything else his and other Southerner's opposition to political egalitarianism that was being thrust into the discussion of new territorial law and exacerbating the political unrest of the period. He said so in this passage:

I have, on all proper occasions, endeavored to call the attention of both the two great parties which divided the country to adopt some measure to prevent so great a disaster, but without success. The agitation has been permitted to proceed with almost no attempt to resist it, until it has reached a point when it can no longer be disguised or denied that the Union is in danger. You have thus had forced upon you the greatest and gravest question that can ever come under your consideration: How can the Union be preserved?

Mr. Calhoun's comments were directed toward his fellow Congressmen's efforts to make important decisions on territorial and state laws based on their impressions of slavery rather than the more important and fundamental protections of liberty that he recognized as the prime responsibility of his government. He addressed the ongoing confusion of leaders engendered by the egalitarian ideas expressed in the DOI but not embodied in the Constitution.

He refers to egalitarian ideas embodied in legislative actions based on:

a proposition which originated in a hypothetical truism, but which, as now expressed and now understood, is the most false and dangerous of all political error.  The proposition to which I allude has become an axiom in the minds of a vast majority on both sides of the Atlantic, and is repeated daily, from tongue to tongue, as an established and incontrovertible truth; it is, that “all men are born free and equal.”  I am not afraid to attack error, however deeply it may be intrenched, or however widely extended, whenever it becomes my duty to do so, as I believe it to be on this subject and occasion.

In pointing out this, Mr. Calhoun was exposing the cultural and social fallacies of the phrase "all men are born free and equal". That explanation has its roots in Plato's discussions on the relationship of the individual to the state. It would seem that Calhoun read Plato, and Hegel; as well as most assuredly Aquinas, Locke and Hobbes.

Practically every one of these thinkers rejected the concepts of government by democracy and that egalitarianism should guide political action. Although embodied in social interactions, especially certain religious movements, liberty was always valued over equality by some that understood the value of our constitution.

He said in this speech:

Instead, then, of all men having the same right to liberty and equality, as is claimed by those who hold that they are all born free and equal, liberty is the noble and highest reward bestowed on mental and moral development, combined with favorable circumstances. Instead, then, of liberty and equality being born with man; instead of all men and all classes and descriptions being equally entitled to them, they are prizes to be won, and are in their most perfect state, not only the highest reward that can be bestowed on our race, but the most difficult to be won and when won, the most difficult to be preserved.

In your research, have you found anyone that understood the fundamental concept of liberty and its total underpinning of government any more thorough than Calhoun?

76 posted on 03/23/2012 11:56:52 AM PDT by PeaRidge
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