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First big piece of 'Electric Highway' gets juice
San Jose Mercury News ^ | 3/16/12 | Jeff Barnard

Posted on 03/17/2012 9:02:15 PM PDT by ProtectOurFreedom

Electric car drivers hit the road Friday to inaugurate the first major section of a West Coast "Electric Highway" dotted with stations where they can charge up in 20 minutes.

The stretch of 160 miles of Interstate 5 served by eight stations marks the next big step in developing an infrastructure that until now has been limited primarily to chargers in homes and workplaces.

The stations go from the California border north to the Oregon city of Cottage Grove and are located at gas stations, restaurants and motels just off the nation's second-busiest interstate. One is at an inn that was once a stage coach stop.

Spaced about every 25 miles, the stations allow a Nissan Leaf with a range of about 70 miles to miss one and still make it to the next. Electric car drivers will be able to recharge in about 20 minutes on the fast-chargers. The charge is free for now.

"I would say range-anxiety with these fast chargers will be nearly a non-issue for me," said Justin Denley, who owns a Nissan Leaf and joined the caravan. Inspired by the stations, his family is planning a trip from Medford to Portland, a distance of about 280 miles. Last summer, he took the family on a 120-mile trip to the coast and had to include an overnight stop at an RV park to charge up.

He expects the trip to Portland to take perhaps three hours longer than in a gas car, because the only chargers available for the last 100 miles are slower, level 2 chargers.

(Excerpt) Read more at mercurynews.com ...


TOPICS: Business/Economy; Government; News/Current Events; US: California
KEYWORDS: dream; liberal; lunacy; wet
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
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To: RobbyS

An electric car is like a boat’s bow wave...always out in front and out of reach.

Basic electrochemistry tells us that a battery is never going to be able to store the energy in the same mass that a hydrocarbon fuel can and won’t ever be able to be charged at the same rate as pumping liquid hydrocarbons into a tank.

Liquid fuels are tailor-made for transportation.

If we had serious oil problems, the smart thing would be to make liquids from coal for a hundred years. Compressed natural gas makes a lot of sense, too — easy to transport and distribute locally via pipelines. Easy to pump up to high pressures for on-board storage.

Generating electricity a thousand miles away, taking the transmission and distribution losses, and “pumping” it into a battery is just plain nonsensical.

The original argument was to reduce city pollution due to tailpipe emissions, but that argument is gone due to automotive emission controls and cleaner fuels. There is NO justification for EVs. Not cost, not range, not convenience, not practicality. EVs are just a liberal wet dream.


51 posted on 03/17/2012 10:44:58 PM PDT by ProtectOurFreedom
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To: boop
And somehow I suspect the charging stations will be located at rest stops. Not a whole lot you can do there, besides poop and pee.

Well, if you're a homo, there's time for a "date."

52 posted on 03/17/2012 10:46:35 PM PDT by Trailerpark Badass
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To: libertarian27
And to beat the long lines at the recharging stations, simply toss one each of these in the trunk...


53 posted on 03/17/2012 10:48:24 PM PDT by ProtectOurFreedom
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To: jveritas

The Leaf may be fine for running errands around town (if you live in a small town), but I’m waiting on the delivery of my “S” car. When I stop to recharge after 300 miles of driving, and then burn rubber merging onto the interstate, people will say,

“Look at that SCarGo.”

http://www.teslamotors.com/models


54 posted on 03/17/2012 10:54:12 PM PDT by NavVet ("You Lie!")
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To: Nowhere Man
Gee...those look like fun! Snark. I was on these tracks in the late 60s. Now that was a blast.


55 posted on 03/17/2012 10:55:37 PM PDT by ProtectOurFreedom
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To: NavVet
Better link for those who don't have a clue!

Look at that S Car go!

56 posted on 03/17/2012 11:00:45 PM PDT by ProtectOurFreedom
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To: ProtectOurFreedom
I had a Manta Ray and a Cobra.

The Cobra had big old slicks on it and would knock out the other guys on the corners when I swung the back end around with a little extra juice.

Man, I'm a old dude...

57 posted on 03/17/2012 11:04:20 PM PDT by Kickass Conservative (A day without Obama is like a day without a Tsunami.)
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To: ProtectOurFreedom

We borrowed a customized van last year that had two tanks. Drove from KC to Denver with only one stop to empty our “people tanks” and still had gas left over. IMO if you have to drive, that’s the way to do it!


58 posted on 03/17/2012 11:26:54 PM PDT by Grams A (The Sun will rise in the East in the morning and God is still on his throne.)
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To: ProtectOurFreedom

1. Transportation and distribution losses are not unique to electricity. If you consider the amount of energy expended to get the energy from the ground and into your tank the distribution losses are greater for oil than they are for electricity.

2. Batteries will probably never achieve the energy density of liquid fuels, however, the most efficient gasoline engines still only transmit 25-30 percent of their energy to the wheels, whereas electric motors transmit around 90% of the energy to the wheels. So, batteries don’t have to achieve the same energy density to get the same number of miles on a charge as a ICE would on a tank. (Admittedly, they will have to improve to at least 400W/Kg. with a 50% reduction in cost) to make a 300 mile electric car practical for most Americans.) However, when that happens, and it will, the per mile cost of fuel 3 cents vs. 12 cents and the greatly reduced maintenance cost will make the electric car competitive for most applications.


59 posted on 03/17/2012 11:27:17 PM PDT by NavVet ("You Lie!")
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To: ProtectOurFreedom; All
That's insane.

Coast-to-coast you're adding roughly a full day consumed entirely by time spent at charging stations every 50 miles one way. That's great for families planning a road trip vacation. /s

Americans average 15,000 miles per year. 15,000 mi / 50 mi between charge stops * 20 min per stop is 6,000 minutes or 100 hours. That's about 4 days 3 hrs 50 min out of your year charging the car.

Assuming 20 mpg and 16 gallon tanks that's about 47 refueling stops. At 10 min each, that's 470 min or about 7 hrs 50 min to keep your car filled.

If I figured right, let's see ... 52 "lost" hours or 8 "lost" hours ... Yup, looks like progress to me. /s

60 posted on 03/17/2012 11:53:55 PM PDT by newzjunkey (Santorum: 18-point loss, voted for Sotomayor, proposed $550M on top of $900M Amtrak budget...)
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To: conservativeimage.com

They’re already changing zoning laws to allow chickens, goats and even small pigs in a lot of places. And a lot of breweries in the UK still use horse-drawn drays for local deliveries (within a few miles) because it’s actually cheaper than fuel. Watch for more horse-drawn vehicles in the countryside if fuel prices go any higher.


61 posted on 03/18/2012 12:54:40 AM PDT by coydog (Time to feed the pigs!)
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To: NavVet
So, batteries don’t have to achieve the same energy density to get the same number of miles on a charge as a ICE would on a tank.

It's not important what the number on the battery says. The test is simple, it's called "distance traveled." If you can come up with a battery that can move the car for 300-400 miles at 50-60 mph then this battery will be a reasonable option.

But the charging time of that battery is still a factor. We know that it doesn't take much time to fill the tank in a car. Perhaps 5 minutes if the tank is large. Fast charging of a battery is theoretically possible today, with damage to the battery; but will that new battery be capable of fast charging? Currents there will be huge.

The problem here is that when you fill the tank you are pouring a chemical that is ready to burn. Batteries take something else and make that chemical while you are waiting. That chemical reaction is much slower, and it is not entirely repeatable; as result, a battery has a limited number of cycles. A gas tank has no such limit.

The electric motor is great, by the way. I don't think many people complain about that part. The problem is only with the battery - it is large, heavy, expensive, fragile, takes forever to charge, and it wears out. If someone finds a way to store (or to produce) electric energy with a battery that costs about the same as an empty gas tank then we will see mass migration to EVs. Until then - sorry, the Leaf is not a good car for a mobile person. It is an OK car for a cube farm guy who only goes to work and from work, 10 miles per day. (But if someone drives that little then it makes no sense to spend $38K on a car.)

So, batteries don’t have to achieve the same energy density to get the same number of miles on a charge as a ICE would on a tank.

Lots of people live in climate with winter. This "lost energy" is not exactly lost to them. Sometimes it's barely enough to heat the cabin, even when you insulate the radiator. An electric car would go maybe 5 miles in winter, even if that much. You can't use a car without heated windows - you need to see where you are going.

when that happens, and it will, the per mile cost of fuel 3 cents vs. 12 cents and the greatly reduced maintenance cost will make the electric car competitive

It all depends on cost of energy sources. Electric power is largely produced with materials of Earth's crust. All other methods (wind, solar, etc.) are very expensive and very inefficient. If EVs are adopted en masse then the cost of electric energy can easily go up - not just because utilities are inherently evil, but simply because there won't be enough electrons to run around. How many power plants, nuclear or otherwise, have been recently constructed? Efficient methods of mining coal are being shunned for aesthetical reasons; mining coal underground is an extremely dangerous manual labor. Domestic oil is neither mined nor purchased from Canada. You can't transport electricity across the ocean; so where will those joules be coming from?

62 posted on 03/18/2012 1:36:13 AM PDT by Greysard
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To: Greysard

“It’s not important what the number on the battery says. The test is simple, it’s called “distance traveled.” If you can come up with a battery that can move the car for 300-400 miles at 50-60 mph then this battery will be a reasonable option.”

The Tesla S model can travel at 55 mph for 300 miles, so those batteries do exist. However, the current energy density levels means you need a lot of them to go 300 miles. If the new Envia batteries hold up after extensive testing, then the size and cost of a battery needed to go 300 miles should drop by 50%. The real limitation now is cost.

“But the charging time of that battery is still a factor. We know that it doesn’t take much time to fill the tank in a car. Perhaps 5 minutes if the tank is large. Fast charging of a battery is theoretically possible today, with damage to the battery; but will that new battery be capable of fast charging? Currents there will be huge.”

On most days, people would trickle charge overnight. You will just plug in when you get home like you would do with the cell phone. There is massive amounts of excess capacity for during the off peak hours, and it would take massive adoption of EV’s to make a dent in that excess capacity. With regard to fast charging, some chemistry is more forgiving than others, but both Nissan and Tesla have done extensive testing and warranty their batteries for 10 years and 8 years respectively.

To say that a battery would have to cost the same as an empty gas tank to be competitive is absurd. This ignores the cost savings per mile of the fuel, the elimination of an expensive, maintenance intensive engine and transmission. To be competitive the EV needs to come close to the ICE on total life cycle costs. Obviously, the more wealthy, can afford to pay a higher up front cost, but most people would pay some premium up front, if their total ownership cost would be the same or less over time. If an empty gas tank costs 300 dollars for a typical sedan, you are suggesting that a 300 mile battery that cost 400 dollars would not be competitive.

Your assertion that an electric car can only drive 5 miles in the cold is false. Yes, the cold does reduce range, but Leaf’s have operated in the northern U.S. this winter getting a lot more than 5 miles. Even if range dropped by 1/3 in the winter, a 300 mile Tesla would still have a lot of range. And don’t forget, that these cars can be programmed to hear / cool the battery and passenger car, using the plugged in power source before the owner gets in the car, so that the car’s battery is not wasted for that purpose.

Yes, we will need to burn coal, use nuclear, import Canadian oil etc. But even if we imported the oil, and used it only to generate electricity, it would still be more efficient than having an often poorly maintained gas power plant in each car on the road.

Driving an EV will always be different, plugging in at night vs. pulling into the WAWA, but when they become competitive in cost and convenience, you will start seeing a lot on the road. The ability to fill up a tank for 5-6 bucks will sway a lot of folks.


63 posted on 03/18/2012 2:28:21 AM PDT by NavVet ("You Lie!")
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To: ProtectOurFreedom

What a waste.


64 posted on 03/18/2012 4:30:50 AM PDT by Venturer
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To: Huskrrrr

These cars are actually coal powered. We’re on the road to nowhere!
... -— ... ... -— ... ...-—... ...-—...

Why isn’t this said every time this subject comes up? Obama shutting down coal is shutting down the electric car industry.


65 posted on 03/18/2012 4:41:15 AM PDT by ThePatriotsFlag (Still a contributing Republican? Why?)
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To: NavVet
these cars can be programmed to hear / cool the battery and passenger car, using the plugged in power source before the owner gets in the car, so that the car’s battery is not wasted for that purpose

On a cold winter day that will get you about 5 minutes until you need to put the heater on. Same for the A/C on a hot summer day.

66 posted on 03/18/2012 4:41:33 AM PDT by Right Wing Assault (Dick Obama is more inexperienced now than he was before he was elected.)
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To: yadent

What, it takes 20-30 minutes to re-charge at a “filling station”?

Let me see, let’s assume there are 5 cars in line (I’m last), it takes (using round numbers) 20 minutes/car so that’s 5 x 20 = 100 minutes or 1 hour and 20 minutes before my car gets re-charged. WOW! I would have to leave home two days before I need to get somewhere just so I could get my car batteries re-charge. Now that is some REAL change (once again, the American public has been duped).

Can you imagine the lines in California as people wait to get the electric cars re-charged? INSANE!!!!!!!


67 posted on 03/18/2012 4:42:01 AM PDT by DaveA37
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To: yadent

What, it takes 20-30 minutes to re-charge at a “filling station”?

Let me see, let’s assume there are 5 cars in line (I’m last), it takes (using round numbers) 20 minutes/car so that’s 5 x 20 = 100 minutes or 1 hour and 20 minutes before my car gets re-charged. WOW! I would have to leave home two days before I need to get somewhere just so I could get my car batteries re-charge. Now that is some REAL change (once again, the American public has been duped).

Can you imagine the lines in California as people wait to get the electric cars re-charged? INSANE!!!!!!!


68 posted on 03/18/2012 4:42:37 AM PDT by DaveA37
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To: yadent
What, it takes 20-30 minutes to re-charge at a “filling station”?

Let me see, let's assume there are 5 cars in line (I'm last), it takes (using round numbers) 20 minutes/car so that's 5 x 20 = 100 minutes or 1 hour and 20 minutes before my car gets re-charged. WOW! I would have to leave home two days before I need to get somewhere just so I could get my car batteries re-charge. Now that is some REAL change (once again, the American public has been duped).

Can you imagine the lines in California as people wait to get the electric cars re-charged? INSANE!!!!!!!

69 posted on 03/18/2012 4:43:42 AM PDT by DaveA37
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To: Progov

When I see the smug guy in the volt (Dolt) ad I just want to hit in the face with a pie. What is with these socialist idiots who are smug about stealing from others (i.e., tax “rebate”), not paying gas taxes and using roads, having all sorts of “subsidies” for their loser cars?


70 posted on 03/18/2012 4:59:29 AM PDT by hal ogen (1st Amendment or Reeducation Camp?)
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To: NavVet
The only way I could ever see electric cars become popular would be (an I never would own one):
- Creation of dozens of new Nuclear power plants
- a standard size battery for all electric cars.
- battery needs to be removable quickly (like lift the hood and have a robot arm pluck it out.
- filling stations would have to have racks of these batteries on hand constantly charging.
- you pull in to the station, you swipe you Debit/credit card, pop the hood, a robot arm pulls you battery out and then puts a new one in, you close the hood and go.

Just like rechargeable batteries for a flashlight.

71 posted on 03/18/2012 6:09:32 AM PDT by CapnJack
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To: Right Wing Assault

True, but bringing the car from 0 up to 70 or from 100 down to 70 would take a tremendous amount of energy. If you program the car to start the heater or A/C while it is still plugged in, all of that energy saved is available for use. Of course, the range will still be reduced, but not as much.


72 posted on 03/18/2012 6:19:38 AM PDT by NavVet ("You Lie!")
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To: ProtectOurFreedom

Only a liberal would think this is “progress.”


That is also assuming that there is an open port for you to recharge your car in when you arrive. What if there is a line? And each member of that line requires (at least) 20 minutes to recharge?

At that point, you’d probably do better with a horse and buggy.


73 posted on 03/18/2012 6:30:49 AM PDT by rbg81
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To: ProtectOurFreedom

“Calling all copper thieves, calling all copper thieves!”


74 posted on 03/18/2012 6:46:47 AM PDT by Pearls Before Swine
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To: ThunderSleeps

“You’re a joke CA, a sad, sick joke. “

I believe this runs from the cal-Ore border to around Eugene Ore. I think you mean “ You’re a joke ORE, a sad, sick joke. “


75 posted on 03/18/2012 7:17:23 AM PDT by Lurkina.n.Learnin (The democratic party is the greatest cargo cult in history.)
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To: ThePatriotsFlag

Great point!


76 posted on 03/18/2012 7:38:52 AM PDT by Huskrrrr
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To: NavVet

Heating a gas car is essentially free. Cooling a small car takes about 4 hp off you engine’s rating.


77 posted on 03/18/2012 7:44:43 AM PDT by Right Wing Assault (Dick Obama is more inexperienced now than he was before he was elected.)
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To: Grizzled Bear

Yeah, they were a pain in the butt when they didn’t get a full charge.


78 posted on 03/18/2012 7:59:49 AM PDT by Nowhere Man (Send Obama back to the ghetto, November 6th.)
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To: ProtectOurFreedom
"the choice is yours"

That is true but you are are trying to define/limit the choices, by saying it electric versus gasoline.

But the choices include: electric, plug-in hybrid, hybrid, gasoline, diesel, natural gas, gasoline-natural gas hybrid.

If you feel limited with your 5 hour range, switch to the gasoline-nat gas hybrid for a 9 hour range, if you can hold your water.

Most families own multiple cars and if they buy an electric it is only for local duty and have no intent of taking it on the road.

79 posted on 03/18/2012 8:13:08 AM PDT by Ben Ficklin
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To: Nowhere Man

No doubt about it and that is why they buy the BS of global warming.


80 posted on 03/18/2012 8:21:10 AM PDT by jveritas (God bless our brave troops)
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To: NavVet

Beautiful car but how much does it cost?


81 posted on 03/18/2012 8:22:55 AM PDT by jveritas (God bless our brave troops)
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To: ProtectOurFreedom

I have asked this question over and over and haven’t gotten an answer maybe I will now. How much will it cost for the 20 minute charge?


82 posted on 03/18/2012 8:24:54 AM PDT by Ditter
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To: NavVet

Re efficiency, you are ignoring total system efficiency. If you have a Rankine or Brayton cycle generating your electricity, you are in the range of 33% to 65% HHV. You are counting the heat engine efficiency of the ICE under the hood, but ignoring the heat engine efficiency at the end of the power line.

Battery R&D has stalled over the past 30 years and I don’t think you’ll ever see the improvements needed to make them competitive. Besides, better batteries and motors require rare earth minerals, 97% of which are in China. It seems the earth’s crust doesn’t that much of the essential rare earths.

The overall toxic waste problem is hugely against batteries, too. Not only do you have up-front toxic messes to extract and refine rare earths, but you have the downstream disposal problem as well. With gaseous or liquid fuels, you also have up-front messes, but they aren’t as toxic as with rare earths. You have waste streams as the fuels are burned in ICEs, but those emissions are very clean now and are temporally and geographically disbursed. What in the world is going to happen to the mountains of used batteries if EVs take off? How will these be recycled?


83 posted on 03/18/2012 8:36:33 AM PDT by ProtectOurFreedom
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To: Progov; yadent; NavVet
WOW! I would have to leave home two days before I need to get somewhere just so I could get my car batteries re-charge. Now that is some REAL change (once again, the American public has been duped).

You only need to drive your electric car as far as the train station. From there you travel by high speed passenger rail while enjoying free wi-fi or perhaps a delicious meal from the food car.

Some days I really miss Willie Green ;-)

84 posted on 03/18/2012 8:36:42 AM PDT by Grizzled Bear (No More RINOS!)
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To: newzjunkey

No wonder you’re not a liberal — you’re thinking with your “left-brain” here. If you were a leftist, you wouldn’t let such cold hard facts interrupt your utopian dreams.

Of course, not all trips are long-haul and you can charge your EV in at night while you sleep, so the numbers don’t work for average annual driving of 15k miles. But for a long drive of, say, >500 miles, you’re spot-on.


85 posted on 03/18/2012 8:39:57 AM PDT by ProtectOurFreedom
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To: CapnJack

An easily removable $20,000 battery — the yutes in the hood will love it. And lots of unscrupulous stations and pawn shops won’t ask many questions when they are brought in — just like all the scum today that will buy bronze urns from graves, historical markers, and miles of twisted copper pipe without asking a single question.


86 posted on 03/18/2012 8:47:03 AM PDT by ProtectOurFreedom
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To: rbg81
What if there is a line when you arrive for a recharge?

Simple...Post #53 has the answer.

87 posted on 03/18/2012 8:50:49 AM PDT by ProtectOurFreedom
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To: Ben Ficklin
Most families own multiple cars and if they buy an electric it is only for local duty and have no intent of taking it on the road.

Fine, keep your EV in hour neighborhood. But don't venture out on the Interstate highway system and expect to find taxpayer financed chargers every 25 miles. What galls us is the STATE installing these things where they are totally impractical -- it's a perfect example of STATE thinking. Extremely expensive, will used by very few "elite" people, an totally impractical (just as you point out). That's why the "wisdom of markets" beats central planning every time and every place they've been tried.

88 posted on 03/18/2012 8:55:35 AM PDT by ProtectOurFreedom
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To: Grizzled Bear

Some days I really miss Willie Green ;-)

I like to think that Boxcar Willie is out there riding the rods. But anyway, here you go:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4P0wgjpoQDw

There’s a nice mix of transport alternatives at the start. ;^)


89 posted on 03/18/2012 9:05:07 AM PDT by headsonpikes (Mass murder and cannibalism are the twin sacraments of socialism - "Who-whom?"-Lenin)
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To: ProtectOurFreedom
"What galls us is the STATE installing these things"

That is because you don't understand, or even acknowledge, the costs of pollution. Including the cost to the state.

I don't mean to discourage you, but let me tell you how it always brakes out.

In this particular issue, the cost of pollution, the group divides into 2 groups with one group saying there is no cost to pollution and a second group saying there is a cost to pollution.

Now while the second group all agree there is a cost, there is wide disagreement within the group as to how much the cost is.

But they are all rational men and they will all sit down at the table to discuss and negotiate and eventually reach a consensus, then develop policy.

But, when they sat down at the table to reach consensus and develop policy, they didn't give a seat to anyone from that group who said there was no cost to pollution.

90 posted on 03/18/2012 9:19:09 AM PDT by Ben Ficklin
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To: Ben Ficklin

Ben, I don’t know where you get the idea I said there is no cost to emissions. Of course there is. I honestly don’t think you’ll find many people who think there is no cost to pollution.

All of us have been paying for these “external” costs of automotive pollution since the first PCV valves went into cars in 1962. By 1976, we were paying $200 - $300 per car for emission controls (remember, in 1976 dollars when cars cost maybe $5,000). Since then, the number of emission controls and their sophistication has grown tremendously. Although I can’t find current numbers, I wouldn’t be surprised if the cost of emissions controls exceeded 10% of the cost of today’s car.

Do we get benefits for this investment? Of course we do. Here in the Bay Area where I live the is much cleaner than it used to be.

If there were any honesty in the argument for EVs, we’d ask the questions “Why do we need them given the improvements in ICE efficiency and emission controls?” We’d step back and take a “zero-based” assessment of the alternatives.

I think you’d find that the justifications for EVs just aren’t there as they were 30 years ago. Both fuels and ICE have improved steadily, making the EV an impractical solution for anywhere but the golf course and a quick trip to the supermarket or your job ten miles away.

But you cannot change the mind of the STATE juggernaut — it is immune to rational thinking. Because governments don’t worry about market forces, they have the “luxury” of continuing to pursue an idea long after the justifications for that idea have evaporated. Exhibit #1: global warming. Exhibit #2: EVs.

We all pay for the folly of government. That is why people on this thread are so angry about government taking OUR money and wasting it for charging stations on long stretches of Interstate highways where it is obviously impractical to use EVs. But logic and honesty are almost always missing in government — they are happy to spend the money because it isn’t theirs, “It’s just taxpayer money.”


91 posted on 03/18/2012 10:30:37 AM PDT by ProtectOurFreedom
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To: NavVet
The ability to fill up a tank for 5-6 bucks will sway a lot of folks

I agree. Wake me when that ever happens. I don't understand much physics but I understand economics pretty well. Meanwhile I'm looking for free lunches somewhere else.

92 posted on 03/18/2012 3:24:37 PM PDT by hinckley buzzard
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To: Ditter
How much will it cost for the 20 minute charge?

You mean after obama has his way and electricity costs "skyrocket?" Not to mention overhead and "reasonable profit" for his lackeys from GE who get the monopoly on roadside recharging units? My guess is, it will be a rude awakening.

93 posted on 03/18/2012 3:31:45 PM PDT by hinckley buzzard
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To: NavVet
when they become competitive in cost and convenience, you will start seeing a lot on the road.

Absolutely true. It's just current EVs are not competitive. Pretty much all opposition to EVs is caused by the government giving people's taxes to EV manufacturers. If an EV manufacturer stands on his own and sells whatever, why would anyone care? There are many EV vehicles currently in use - such as indoor forklifts and golf carts. Nobody villifies them because they do their job and they are not consuming taxpayer's money.

The Tesla S model can travel at 55 mph for 300 miles, so those batteries do exist. However, the current energy density levels means you need a lot of them to go 300 miles.

Yes - and then you are facing a kind of a rocket equation. You need a 10,000 lb of batteries to move a 200 lb payload (the driver.) While mathematically possible, it's unreasonably expensive.

On most days, people would trickle charge overnight.

This is OK as long as the battery has enough charge to cover all the daily trips. This also presumes that the car returns to the home base every night. Trips anywhere else, with stays in random hotels, are not supported (the charging port may or may not be available.) Which again says that the EV, as it exists today and in the nearest future, is a car for local use during the day, under controlled conditions. If you live on a ranch and on a windy day a telephone pole falls and injures your spouse you can't just take an EV and drive her 100 miles to the hospital. You need to let the EV charge first. This is obviously not what people like to hear.

To say that a battery would have to cost the same as an empty gas tank to be competitive is absurd.

You need to give some incentive to the car buyer. If an EV has the same TCO as a gas car then there is no reason to buy an EV. An EV must be cheaper. In any case, today's batteries represent about 80% of the EV's cost, so there is a long way to go until we can debate this fine point.

And don’t forget, that these cars can be programmed to hear / cool the battery and passenger car, using the plugged in power source before the owner gets in the car, so that the car’s battery is not wasted for that purpose.

Yes, the car can be preheated or precooled, but that doesn't last more than 5 minutes. I know that very well, I lived in cold climate for decades. Thermal insulation of a car is poor due to many glass windows. I don't know how the measurements that you refer to were made; perhaps the driver was using fur clothes, gloves, and was breathing through a water vapor absorbent. In real life, though, defrosting requires a lot of energy - and the only source of that energy is the battery.

94 posted on 03/18/2012 3:43:13 PM PDT by Greysard
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To: Right Wing Assault

The reason heating a gas car seems free, is that you are just tapping to the tremendous amount of waste heat that the gasoline engine puts out. Of course, all of that heat is generated by gasoline whose energy is not being used to turn the wheels, and you are still paying for that gasoline. Another way to look at it would be that with an electric car, you only use energy to heat or cool when you tell the car to do so, in a gasoline engine, you are burning gas to generate heat, whether you direct it into the passenger compartment or not.


95 posted on 03/18/2012 5:47:25 PM PDT by NavVet ("You Lie!")
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To: ProtectOurFreedom

1. If you can point to the car now in production with a 35-65 percent efficiency, I would like to see it. Such a vehicle is not in production. I am not ignoring the heat efficiency at the source, but you have tremendous energy expenditure to extract, refine and transport oil, with electricity generation the energy lost in production isn’t any greater than that used to produce refined gasoline. However, the transmission over the power line and the use in the vehicle itself is dramatically more efficient that the gasoline counterpart.

If you think batteries haven’t advanced in 30 years in terms of energy density, then you just haven’t been paying attention.

Lithium is non-toxic and can safely be disposed of in landfills, although it would likely be recycled for economic reasons.

And there is no shortage of lithium in places like Bolivia, or even seawater.


96 posted on 03/18/2012 5:57:04 PM PDT by NavVet ("You Lie!")
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To: jveritas

50-80K depending on how much range you want


97 posted on 03/18/2012 6:04:11 PM PDT by NavVet ("You Lie!")
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To: Greysard

If you drive a Tesla S with a 300 mile range, you are probably not going to pull into your driveway with zero miles left in the battery. However, charging gives you a mile after every couple of minutes, so even if you pulled in on absolute zero and were on charge for 30 minutes, when your wife injured herself, you would probably have plenty of juice to make it the few miles that most people live from an ER.

EV’s don’t have to be cheaper, they just can’t be more expensive, but you can’t just consider the battery cost, you have to consider the per mile cost to operate the vehicle, including the greatly reduced maintenance cost of EV’s.

Initial defrosting would normally happen while the vehicle was still plugged in was my point. Yes, you would have to heat the car on long trips, but a 300 mile battery will still take you 250 miles even with the heat on.


98 posted on 03/18/2012 6:30:12 PM PDT by NavVet ("You Lie!")
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To: NavVet

I know. But the way you wrote it makes it sound as if this tremendous amount of energy is over and above what is usually used in mild weather.

Of course gas engines throw away a lot of energy, but for now they are the best bet.

There is no way way a present day all-electric vehicle is going to keep me warm in a cold winter (or cool in a hot summer) and be able to have any usable range. Any heat provided by the plug-in will be gone in 5 minutes in cold weather.

I don’t think we are going to convince each other, so I’ll stop here. You can have the last word it you’d like.


99 posted on 03/19/2012 2:18:25 AM PDT by Right Wing Assault (Dick Obama is more inexperienced now than he was before he was elected.)
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To: ProtectOurFreedom

I have an idea, one that can work, you install a regular trailer hitch to your electric car, when the need arises that you have to travel a long distance you hitch up the “Electra-Mule” which is a small gas engine on a trailer axle connected by a drive belt and a clutch.

From inside the car by remote control once you have reached a cruising speed you engage the pusher motor and let it take the strain off the batteries.

Wit other options available is a quick charge feature alternator that can re-charge your electric vehicle when other options are not available.


100 posted on 03/19/2012 2:33:24 AM PDT by Eye of Unk (Liberals need not reply.)
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