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Gun that killed Florida teen was fired once not twice by crime watch volunteer
bostonherald.com ^ | 20 March, 2012 | Rene Stutzman and Bianca Prieto

Posted on 03/20/2012 7:08:27 PM PDT by marktwain

Edited on 03/20/2012 7:21:16 PM PDT by Sidebar Moderator. [history]

SANFORD, Fla. — The handgun that killed Trayvon Martin, an unarmed black 17-year-old, was fired once — not twice — by a neighborhood crime watch volunteer, according to new information obtained by the Orlando Sentinel.

Police found a single shell casing at the scene, and when they seized George Zimmerman’s handgun, a Kel Tel 9 mm, its magazine was full, according to a source close to the investigation. The only bullet missing was the one in the chamber, the source said.


(Excerpt) Read more at news.bostonherald.com ...


TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Culture/Society; News/Current Events; US: Florida
KEYWORDS: banglist; fl; florida; georgezimmerman; martin; trayvonmartin; zimmerman
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To: little jeremiah

Sadly, you’re probably right about that.


151 posted on 03/20/2012 10:57:15 PM PDT by NMCicero
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To: marktwain; All
Hi Mark, and ALL
Mark stated:”I am stating that his being tall makes Zimmerman's account of self defense more credible.”

MY COMMENT: I sat in on two different 1st degree murder trials in the late fifties, in Fairbanks Alaska. In both cases the defendents pleaded self defense. It took less than 30 minutes for the Juries to acquit.

In one case the shooter shot the victim in the knee and then emptied his gun in his back as he lay on the ground in front of him. When asked why he shot him so many times in the back, he said he was sure the victim had a gun and he wanted to make sure he was dead before he got a chance to use it.

In the other one the victim, who was unarmed, had knocked the shooter down and was standing over him when the shooter pulled out his gun and shot him in the head, killing him.

He argued that he felt sure the victim knew he had a gun and that the victim would take it away from him and use it on him. Therefore he shot him and he shot to kill because once he had shot him he knew the guy would retaliate if he let him live.

In both cases the Jury agreed that the defendants had acted in self defense, even though they may be guilty of other crimes like 2nd degree murder or manslaughter etc.

POINT BEING, Zimmerman may have started it, don't know, but he could have been afraid that he would lose possession of his gun. At this point both parties can claim self defense.

Cheers:>)EasyDoesIt

152 posted on 03/20/2012 11:01:11 PM PDT by eazdzit (Practicing islam should be TREASON? WE need a 3rd Party. NEWT/PALIN in 2012)
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To: muawiyah

It certainly looks that way.

Zimmerman ...the surname...where i come from is a usually Jewish surname...doesn’t sound very latino but could be by marriage

Bob Dylan

The Service Merchandise company founders here in Nashville...and so forth

there are exceptions with most German Jewish names which are often Jewish but have exceptions as Christian surnames too....Miller is one....Rosenberg another and then there are obvious strictly Jewish ones like Shulmeister or Cohen

Zimmerman...technically means wood craftsman

this does not appear to be a righteous kill to me...and i do not like taking the race hustlers side


153 posted on 03/20/2012 11:01:38 PM PDT by wardaddy (I am a social conservative. My political party left me(again). They can go to hell in a bucket.)
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To: Gunslingr3

I’m talking about the ‘hate crime’ component and the DOJ’s SELECTIVE enforcement of the law in favor of everyone (just so long as they aren’t white). The DOJ should’ve pursued Tyson for ‘hate crimes’ because the EVIDENCE SHOWS robbery was NOT the motive.


154 posted on 03/20/2012 11:04:02 PM PDT by FedsRStealingOurCountryFromUs
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To: al baby
WTF is a Kel Tel 9 mm a typo or sloppy reporting ?

I'm sure they meant K-Tel, as in the late night TV ads.

Or, just maybe, Kel-Tec. I dunno.

≤}B^)

155 posted on 03/20/2012 11:05:16 PM PDT by Erasmus (BHO: New supreme leader of the homey rollin' empire.)
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To: NMCicero

Political? The DOJ will do a fine job of that themselves.


156 posted on 03/20/2012 11:05:49 PM PDT by FedsRStealingOurCountryFromUs
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To: Trailerpark Badass

“but when the gun is fired, one case ejects and a new live round is stripped from the mag, leaving it one round less than full.”

Unless the magazine wasn’t seated properly. Then it fires,, and closes on an empty chamber, having failed to strip the next round because the mag wasn’t “clicked” into position when inserted.


157 posted on 03/20/2012 11:06:51 PM PDT by DesertRhino (I was standing with a rifle, waiting for soviet paratroopers, but communists just ran for office)
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To: Trailerpark Badass

If you listen to the 911 tapes (which are available on the internet) it seems clear that Mr. Zimmerman was seeking a confrontation. As to who threw the first punch, I have no idea, but I don’t think its particularly relevant. The point is that Mr. Zimmerman placed himself in a situation that ended in violence and if you take his statements to the 911 dispatcher at face value, it appears that a violent confrontation is what he was seeking.


158 posted on 03/20/2012 11:08:11 PM PDT by NMCicero
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To: OldMissileer
The only bullet missing was the one in the chamber, the source said.

I'm still trying to figure out this statement.

Bad reporting (bad writing) indeed.

159 posted on 03/20/2012 11:12:08 PM PDT by Smokin' Joe (How often God must weep at humans' folly. Stand fast. God knows what He is doing)
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To: Gunslingr3

There are black Hispanics.

See Puerto Rico, Dom Rep, Cuba...what’s left there is mostly black or mixed...most of the whites came here, coastal Colombia, Venezuela, Honduras, and Nicaragua...some as black as pitch...pure tropical Negroid Africans

Hispanic simply identifies those with culture and tongue derived from Spain more than anything else

having spent decades amongst them I’d say it’s about thirds in any latino American nation’s regions that borders the Caribbean or Atlantic except Uruguay and Argentina...one third pure white, one third fairly black and one third black/Indian/white mixed...in the parts of those nations that are near the coast but say in Colombia for example high up in cold drab Bogota blacks are as rare in town as they would be at a klan picnic

Here in the US we are more clearly defined...we were settled different. Soldier colonist in Spain claimed Americas did not stick to their own kind like English and Dutch pioneers did here from jump street...and judge for yourself which nations have fared better...for other reasons too


160 posted on 03/20/2012 11:12:35 PM PDT by wardaddy (I am a social conservative. My political party left me(again). They can go to hell in a bucket.)
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To: Trailerpark Badass

“If I tell you I am from the neighborhood watch, ask your name and what you’re doing, and you come at me, hit me, knock me down and continue attacking me, I’m going to shoot you.”

If you say “i’m neignborhood watch,,” and start playing junior cop,,and i don’t know you, or ain’t in the mood for your crap, ill tell you to leave me alone. If you try to physically detain me,,, maybe i’d shoot you.
Where in hell do you think that neigborhood watch has the right to confront people on the street? You don’t,,, unless you see me raping, beating or breaking in. Otherwise,, your ONE option is to watch me, and report me to the cops.
If you just see someone you don’t know,, walking along,, they dont have the slightest obligation to put up with your junior cop routine.


161 posted on 03/20/2012 11:13:40 PM PDT by DesertRhino (I was standing with a rifle, waiting for soviet paratroopers, but communists just ran for office)
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To: NMCicero
If you listen to the 911 tapes (which are available on the internet) it seems clear that Mr. Zimmerman was seeking a confrontation.

Yes, he was a neighborhood watch activist in a high-crime apartment complex. "Confrontation" could mean nothing more than saying hello.

Does Martin have a reasonable expectation that when walking out in public areas at night no one is allowed to talk to him?

The point is you have no evidence with which to characterize that confrontation other than your imagination.

162 posted on 03/20/2012 11:15:17 PM PDT by Trailerpark Badass
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To: Hiro Protaginast

“he’s not white. he’s hispanic.”

Can be both.

White is a race

Hispanic is an ethnicity which can be several races, including white, Indian, black, etc.

Many of my firends and some relatives by marriage are hispanic. Mostly european, eg. Spanish origin. Several are mixed european plus indian blood.

A cousin is half Spanish, half Philippino.

I knew a woman from Peru that was 3/4 Chinese and 1/4 indian.

We have seen some baseball players from the Caribbean that are all or part black.


163 posted on 03/20/2012 11:16:12 PM PDT by truth_seeker
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To: FedsRStealingOurCountryFromUs

Perhaps, but that has yet to occur, and until it does I see no reason to condemn their (the DOJ) actions. Right now they are simply investigating the incident, which I don’t think is at all inappropriate.


164 posted on 03/20/2012 11:16:25 PM PDT by NMCicero
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To: NMCicero
If you listen to the 911 tapes (which are available on the internet) it seems clear that Mr. Zimmerman was seeking a confrontation.

Yes, he was a neighborhood watch activist in a high-crime apartment complex. "Confrontation" could mean nothing more than saying hello.

Does Martin have a reasonable expectation that when walking out in public areas at night no one is allowed to talk to him?

The point is you have no evidence with which to characterize that confrontation other than your imagination.

165 posted on 03/20/2012 11:18:25 PM PDT by Trailerpark Badass
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To: NMCicero

I have no idea why I am leery of THIS DOJ.. Oh wait, here’s a few reasons!: http://www.judicialwatch.org/blog/category/department-of-justice/


166 posted on 03/20/2012 11:23:14 PM PDT by FedsRStealingOurCountryFromUs
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To: Trailerpark Badass

Neigborhood watch has no legal authority beyond that of ANY citizen. If while you are simply walking home from the store, someone comes out of a house,, and demands to know your name, whats your business, etc,,,
You care free to ignore them, and need not speak a word to them. If they try to stop you,, or they point a gun at you,,, You may exercise the right of self defense. Including punching them in the head and trying to gain control of the gun.

Too bad the kid lost. Sounds like he was in a desperate state when Zimm misunderstood his role as an observer and reporter.
What was the immediate need for Zimm to exit and contact the kid? He knew cops were on the way,, he could have just maintained observation. Now he’s murdered a regular nice kid.


167 posted on 03/20/2012 11:23:54 PM PDT by DesertRhino (I was standing with a rifle, waiting for soviet paratroopers, but communists just ran for office)
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To: DesertRhino
Where in hell do you think that neigborhood watch has the right to confront people on the street?

This wasn't on a "street." From the description, this was a multi-unit condo complex with common areas, presumably maintained by owners' fees.

What right did Martin have to wander around in public without anyone talking to him?

168 posted on 03/20/2012 11:27:25 PM PDT by Trailerpark Badass
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To: Trailerpark Badass

I believe you are factually incorrect as to the nature of the community in which Mr. Martin resided. Do a Google search for “The Retreat at Twin Lakes” for more information. (It’s a subdivision, not an apartment complex.)

As to the evidence that leads me to believe that Mr. Zimmerman was seeking a confrontation, as I said, I base my conclusion on the 911 tapes, which are also available on the internet.

And as to whether Mr. Martin could reasonably expect that he could walk about the streets unmolested, my answer to you is unequivocally yes. Every person has the right to expect that they can go about their business free from interference so long as they are doing nothing illegal, and there is no evidence to support a conclusion that Mr. Martin was engaged in anything resembling criminal activity.


169 posted on 03/20/2012 11:28:53 PM PDT by NMCicero
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To: Trailerpark Badass

“What right did Martin have to wander around in public without anyone talking to him?”

The right we **all have** is to not be required to interact with those types. In your world,,is everyone acccountable to explain their evening to Zimm the nut, or every busybody who demands some answers? NO.
Why?? Because those people can simply call the cops who CAN stop and identify him lawfully. Then Martin would not have the right to flee.


170 posted on 03/20/2012 11:31:44 PM PDT by DesertRhino (I was standing with a rifle, waiting for soviet paratroopers, but communists just ran for office)
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To: FedsRStealingOurCountryFromUs

No argument there. There’s plenty of reason to be suspicious of Federal power. My point was only that until the DOJ does something in this specific context that is objectionable, there is no reason for anyone to object.


171 posted on 03/20/2012 11:33:52 PM PDT by NMCicero
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To: Trailerpark Badass

“this was a multi-unit condo complex with common areas, presumably maintained by owners’ fees.”

And he was there,, lawfully, as a resident. It wasn’t a Kibbutz collective. Rights and rule of law still exist. Even apartment dwellers don’t have to answer to every cop wannabe residents questions.


172 posted on 03/20/2012 11:34:02 PM PDT by DesertRhino (I was standing with a rifle, waiting for soviet paratroopers, but communists just ran for office)
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To: DesertRhino
Neigborhood watch has no legal authority beyond that of ANY citizen. If while you are simply walking home from the store, someone comes out of a house,, and demands to know your name, whats your business, etc,,, You care free to ignore them, and need not speak a word to them. If they try to stop you,, or they point a gun at you,,, You may exercise the right of self defense. Including punching them in the head and trying to gain control of the gun.

In the same way, if I see someone walking down the sidewalk in front of my house, what's to stop me from walking out on my property and engaging them? If I ask questions that antagonize him, is he allowed to assault me?

173 posted on 03/20/2012 11:36:01 PM PDT by Trailerpark Badass
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To: Trailerpark Badass

“In the same way, if I see someone walking down the sidewalk in front of my house, what’s to stop me from walking out on my property and engaging them? If I ask questions that antagonize him, is he allowed to assault me?”

If he ignores you, or laughs at you, or asks if you were rejected by the local police,,,,and keeps walking,, you had better let him. If you do anything that causes a reasonable person to fear an immediate battery (ie,, body position, proximity, menacing behavior,,, trying to prevent him from leaving) He may indeed defend himself.

Is your position that he is somehow required to submit to your stop and interrogation? LOL DO what you want,, but you have no right to be listened to, placated, or obeyed .


174 posted on 03/20/2012 11:41:23 PM PDT by DesertRhino (I was standing with a rifle, waiting for soviet paratroopers, but communists just ran for office)
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To: NMCicero
Understood.

As to the evidence that leads me to believe that Mr. Zimmerman was seeking a confrontation, as I said, I base my conclusion on the 911 tapes, which are also available on the internet.

Yes, I conceded that he was looking for a confrontation, as a neighborhood watch activist. And it's funny to see Freepers so beholden to the power and judgment of 911 dispatchers. That's ridiculous.

You're claiming he initiated a violent confrontation. I'm not sure the evidence supports that.

175 posted on 03/20/2012 11:42:56 PM PDT by Trailerpark Badass
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To: DesertRhino
Is your position that he is somehow required to submit to your stop and interrogation?

Nope.

176 posted on 03/20/2012 11:45:40 PM PDT by Trailerpark Badass
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To: Trailerpark Badass

Then we’re fine. Come out and confront,, don’t aim a gun, and don’t try to detain me if i decide im not interested in any engagement,,,just for walking down the sidewalk.


177 posted on 03/20/2012 11:48:06 PM PDT by DesertRhino (I was standing with a rifle, waiting for soviet paratroopers, but communists just ran for office)
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To: NMCicero

Believe me, if it’s Holder you KNOW what his agenda is.


178 posted on 03/20/2012 11:58:56 PM PDT by FedsRStealingOurCountryFromUs
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To: FedsRStealingOurCountryFromUs

You got that right. And though im in the camp that thinks this guy deserves a homicide charge (probably manslaughter)
i do not think the feds have a role here.

If the injustice is obvious to the locals, and enough people are outraged,, they will almost surely have an immediate effect on State prosecutors and can force a grand jury examination of this.
This panel of citizens can then decide if there is enough evidence.

It is far far too early for the DOJ to be involved in this. Unless it is utterly demonstrated that some sort of corruption exists, and cannot be corrected by local citizens,, then DOJ has no role.

If an actual injustice is perceived locally,,it takes a little time for the locals to get their leaders to see the light. THe local citizens need time to bring their own leaders to heel. But no matter,, this seems to be a state matter.


179 posted on 03/21/2012 12:12:34 AM PDT by DesertRhino (I was standing with a rifle, waiting for soviet paratroopers, but communists just ran for office)
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To: Hiro Protaginast

he’s not white. he’s hispanic.
*************************
Hispanic is an ethnicity, not a race. Even the US Census counts them as ‘white’, or Caucasian, since they stem from Anglos in Spain and Portugal....thus the term ‘Hispanic’ from Hispania from Iberia.


180 posted on 03/21/2012 12:19:13 AM PDT by octex
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To: little jeremiah

[Holder’s getting involved. And a 17 year old isn’t a “child”.]

Yep. Wasn’t there a 12 or 14 year old tried for murder as an adult in FL recently?


181 posted on 03/21/2012 2:40:09 AM PDT by bjorn14 (Woe to those who call good evil and evil good. Isaiah 5:20)
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To: cport

...it is easy to walk by a house and see whats in there at night with the lights on, and no one to see you do it.
***********************
Who, in their right mind, would leave front windows uncovered at night with the interior lights on so that anyone outside could view what was going on in the house?


182 posted on 03/21/2012 2:49:33 AM PDT by octex
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To: Josa

And how about the Knoxvill massacre where a young couple were kidnapped, raped, tortured for days then murdered by black thugs?
http://www.vdare.com/articles/the-knoxville-horror-crime-race-the-media-and-anti-racism

It was covered up by MSM. No outrage. No protests.
Authorities refused to lable it a hate crime.


183 posted on 03/21/2012 2:59:49 AM PDT by patriot08 (TEXAS GAL- born and bred and proud of it!)
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To: OldMissileer

“How could the magazine be full? If the trigger was pulled and the round fired, the slide would have cycled another round into the chamber. Thus, the magazine would have one less round and the chamber would be loaded again.”

They did say it was a Keltec, not one of the most reliable brands on the market. They don’t even make good trotline weights.


184 posted on 03/21/2012 3:03:20 AM PDT by Dusty Road
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To: yarddog

Save your money.


185 posted on 03/21/2012 3:11:29 AM PDT by Dusty Road
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To: Uncle Lonny

Thank you!


186 posted on 03/21/2012 3:20:23 AM PDT by Dusty Road
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To: IYAAYAS

When you shoot, the empty casing is ejected and a new round is inserted into place. At that point the mag is minus one round and not full. If one were to fire the weapon and then load one round into the mag then it might appear full.


187 posted on 03/21/2012 3:41:43 AM PDT by DainBramage
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To: bjorn14

The perp is 28. His victim is a minor ~ 17.


188 posted on 03/21/2012 4:57:45 AM PDT by muawiyah
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To: DesertRhino

You keep referring to pointing a gun at someone. There is nothing in the 911 tapes that suggest he was pointing a gun. There is nothing to suggest he was being aggressive. There is evidence that he went to confront, but like trailerpark said, if confrontation is defined by “what are you doing” then why bother with a watch. You butress your arguement with facts not in evidence, unless a 911 tape can provide video as well as audio. The only place that he pointed a gun at him is in your head.


189 posted on 03/21/2012 5:05:48 AM PDT by cport (How can political capital be spent on a bunch of ingrates)
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To: Trailerpark Badass; All

“In any case, a law that permits someone to start a fight and then kill the person they attacked if the fight doesn’t go their way is insane and needs to be changed.”

“What evidence is there that Zimmerman started a fight. His head wounds?”

This is the crux of the matter. Up until the fight started, both parties did nothing wrong or illegal.

George Zimmerman says he was attacked. He has wounds and all the physical evidence says that he was.

Trayvon Martin’s parents say that Zimmerman attacked Trayvon. They were not there. Their evidence seems to be that Trayvon was black and 17, so he could not be the one who started the fight.

Everyone agrees that a fight occured.


190 posted on 03/21/2012 5:33:38 AM PDT by marktwain
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To: marktwain

If the pattern of leftist race baiting coverage of crime stands, we will not find out the truth from the media about this case. We will find out a lot of lies aimed at making a total monster of a “racist.” They make any one of their race targets look like their critical race theory stereotype.

The truth will come out in the trial through telephone recordings and testimony.


191 posted on 03/21/2012 5:59:06 AM PDT by SaraJohnson
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To: exhaustguy

FRiend, I think the most likely scenario is Zimmerman is a low IQ nutball. But I have have personally seen the criminal element do the poor innocent me routine so I don’t totally discount that the kid was possibly up to no good. Regardless, it was not a good idea to chase him down and cap him based on only wild suspicions.


192 posted on 03/21/2012 6:02:57 AM PDT by lodi90
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To: marktwain

So what? The kid’s still dead, isn’t he? Zimmerman killed him. Who cares how many trigger pulls it took?


193 posted on 03/21/2012 6:03:24 AM PDT by wtc911 (Amigo - you've been had.)
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To: marktwain
Let me get this straight....

You are arguing that Martin was the threat to Zimmerman...in spite of the fact that Zimmerman is on tape stating that he was following the kid...that he continued to follow him after he was told not to...that he is on tape complaining that "they always get away" (who are 'they'...more 17 year old black kids?)...and that it was Zimmerman who had the gun.

Do I have it right?

I am absolutely sure that the kid's race has nothing to do with your truly idiotic premise.

194 posted on 03/21/2012 6:09:13 AM PDT by wtc911 (Amigo - you've been had.)
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To: BushCountry
Also, the boy was wearing a hood and racing from the store (the Hispanic man did not know why?)

______________________________________

:Racing from the store"????

Please provide proof the Martin was "Racing from the store". Because, frankly, I think you made it up to fit whatever scenario you need to meet your needs on this.

195 posted on 03/21/2012 6:14:20 AM PDT by wtc911 (Amigo - you've been had.)
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To: faucetman

‘You are probably correct, but is there a law in Florida against being a “wannabe stud hero”?’

I think when you stalk someone...(the dispatcher told him not to follow the kid) and the kid is walking away from you (the kid is frightened, talking on phone to his girlfriend)...there ought to be a law against a neighborhood watch guy doing that.

This death was totally uncalled for.


196 posted on 03/21/2012 6:24:01 AM PDT by Dudoight
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To: editor-surveyor

“He was right to maintain surveilance, and you may be a nut case.”

The kid was a real danger, wasn’t he? Zimmerman knew that for sure, so he stalks the kid, then kills him. Brilliant.

You don’t like what I say...so I’m nuts. Glad you aren’t MY neighborhood ‘watch’ guy.


197 posted on 03/21/2012 6:28:02 AM PDT by Dudoight
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To: BOBWADE
He can be prosecuted if he was trying to unlawfully detain the guy but I wasn't there so I won't judge him or question his right to defend himself.

I don't question his right to defend himself either, but chasing someone around in a car and then getting out to confront them isn't 'defending' yourself. The legislator that created the 'stand your ground' law in Florida was on the radio this morning, and he said the law isn't intended to protect someone who pursues someone else and initiates a confrontation.

Florida's Republican legislature isn't about to remove this law from the books, but Zimmerman's actions are going to make it a lot harder for people in other states to get a 'stand your ground' law on their books.

198 posted on 03/21/2012 6:34:27 AM PDT by Gunslingr3
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To: All

Meanwhile, two state legislators who sponsored Florida’s “stand your ground” deadly-force law in 2005 called for George Zimmerman to be arrested for shooting Martin. “They got the goods on him. They need to prosecute whoever shot the kid,” one of the lawmakers, Republican former Sen. Durell Peaden told the Miami Herald. “He has no protection under my law.” His co-sponsor, current Rep. Dennis Baxley (R), told the paper: “There’s nothing in this statute that authorizes you to pursue and confront people, particularly if law enforcement has told you to stay put. I don’t see why this statute is being challenged in this case. That is to prevent you from being attacked by other people.”


199 posted on 03/21/2012 6:53:02 AM PDT by Gunslingr3
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To: Gunslingr3
Florida's Republican legislature isn't about to remove this law from the books, but Zimmerman's actions are going to make it a lot harder for people in other states to get a 'stand your ground' law on their books.

And that is the left's purpose in making such a big stink about this event. They don't like that people should have the ability to defend themselves against thugs and such, so they've taken a case where someone (allegedly) went beyond the law and twist it into an attack on the law itself.

Thugs hate armed citizens.

200 posted on 03/21/2012 6:55:48 AM PDT by meyer (Fluke - the new "F" word)
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