[khelus]

... but the problem is that most of the kids coming out of CS/EE schools today aren’t taught Ada, nor are they taught real-world, “Big System” s/w engineering. They don’t know jack, really. They come out knowing C/C++ and Java... and how to code their silly social media websites... and this corrupts their minds. How you think about large system design is, in part, predicated upon your implementation language. ...

... Once you get beyond trivial systems where you can review all the code and know all the states, transitions and responses to inputs... you’ll have bugs. How many you have is a function of design, implementation language and how willing management is to “do the right thing” instead of meeting their silly schedules. ...

I read your reply to U-238 and me.

Now that I see where your perspective is coming from, we are not that far apart. My perspective is of a vintage in IT professional who started pre C++ and Java, working on huge business systems. My associates in IT are of the same era. Good software engineering requires being able to look at both forests and trees, knowing when to consult with those who run production and manage data bases, being able to look backwards and forwards. These are skills that do not seem to be fostered in newer software engineers.

As systems become more complex and interface with more platforms, it is more likely that bugs will develop, however they ought to be the result of a set of exceedingly rare circumstances.

See my post # 29.

[jpsb]

I started in FORTRAN when memory was NOT cheap, lol. I always liked Cobol, loved C and think Java is pretty cool too. C++ is OK I guess but I’ve never seen a really good reason for using C++ over C or if you need objects over Java. Sometimes I have to talk to the hardware on a PC, so I’ll use a C++ compiler to link with C++ libraries but I still just write in plain old C code.

[NVDave]

I think we’re of the same vintage and we agree more than we disagree.

The one central problem I see in many of these huge systems written in C++ is that C++ tries to be all things to every coder, giving tools and paradigms to do literally everything.

When it was just “C with classes” in the late 80’s, it was OK. I have no problem with more modest OOP C implementations, eg, Objective-C and the like, where they try to be more modest and firm in their goals.

But C++? Holy crap. The excuse and reason given by management for not going to Ada-83 in the 80’s was that “Ada is too complex in the wrong areas - we don’t have as much as we need in the area of hardware interface in Ada...”

The excuses I’ve heard for not going to Ada-95, which fixed most of those issues, was that “Ada-95 is too complex.”

Then along comes C++, which is more complex than any other programming language I’ve seen (and I’ve programmed in more than a dozen languages, from assembly to Common Lisp, Smalltalk-80, etc) and management swallows all their Ada excuses and jumps on the bandwagon... because they don’t want to have to train Ada coders in-house.

Morons.

Now, as far as error rates:

The two projects I know of that have error rates one-tenth or lower of the common industry error rates are the Shuttle orbiter and ground system code (not written in C or C++) and the Boeing 777 FMS (written in Ada). The way they both achieved their low error rates was intensive requirements tracking, walk-throughs of design, code walk-throughs, change management, etc. Nothing that wouldn’t work today in any other language.

Trouble is, the C++ shops I’ve seen all leave that behind. They’re all about buying lots of flashing-screen tools and IDE’s, class libraries and pumping out the code.

One of my biggest beefs with C++ is that they mix two huge paradigms into one language: programming by template and programming by classes. I believe that a language should pick on and do it well. Then there’s the lack of native memory management in C++, which I find inexcusable. One of the best reasons I know of to skip C++ and go straight to Java (or similar) languages is that the typical newb programmers are horrid at managing dynamic memory allocation/returns, leading to leaks that remind one of the Titanic.

Google’s Chrome browser and Firefox both have their roots in C++ and they have memory leaks that require I restart them frequently.