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US government files antitrust suit against Apple over e-book pricing
Apple Insider ^ | 11 Apr 12 | AppleInsider Staff

Posted on 04/11/2012 7:31:07 AM PDT by xzins

Wednesday, April 11, 2012

By AppleInsider Staff

Published: 10:05 AM EST (07:05 AM PST)

An antitrust suit accusing Apple and a number of book publishers of price fixing and collusion was filed by the U.S. Department of Justice on Wednesday.

The complaint was filed in a New York district court against Apple, Hachette, HarperCollins, Macmillan, and Penguin, according to Bloomberg. Indications first surfaced on Tuesday that the Department of Justice was readying an antitrust suit.

The justice department is expected to settle with "several publishers" this week, as Reuters reported earlier that Simon & Schuster, Hachette, Penguin, Macmillan and HarperCollins are involved in negotiations. Apple and Macmillan have reportedly refused to engage in settlement talks, and have argued that Apple's pricing agreements have enhanced competition in an industry that was previously dominated by Amazon.

Word of the government's interest in e-book price fixing first came to light in March, when ti was revealed that the Department of Justice had warned Apple and five major publishers of its plans to sue them. The government has taken issue with Apple's alleged role in convincing e-book publishers to switch to an "agency model" for sales, rather than the "wholesale model" that Amazon had implemented with its own Kindle store.

Under Amazon's method, publishers would sell their books at wholesale and let the bookseller set its own prices. Amazon repeatedly upset publishers by selling titles at a loss.


TOPICS: Front Page News; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: agencymodel; amazon; antitrust; apple; collusion; ebook; freemarket; hachette; harpercollins; holder; macmillan; penguin; pricefixing; simonandschuster
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1 posted on 04/11/2012 7:31:18 AM PDT by xzins
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To: All

I could have predicted this, but Apple does have a point about Amazon dominating the market.

In that case, this would be 2 giants slugging it out, so I’m not sure it rises to the level of anti-trust.


2 posted on 04/11/2012 7:33:12 AM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain and Proud of It! Pray Continued Victory for our Troops Still in Afghan!)
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To: xzins

More from the War on Business regime.


3 posted on 04/11/2012 7:36:46 AM PDT by Dan Nunn (Support the NRA!)
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To: xzins

How’s that “Made in China” think working out Apple?


4 posted on 04/11/2012 7:37:49 AM PDT by Cringing Negativism Network (Draft Palin VP!)
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To: xzins

I wish Steve Jobs were still around to tell Holder to go f@#& himself. Tim Cook seems like a pushover.


5 posted on 04/11/2012 7:38:02 AM PDT by Dan Nunn (Support the NRA!)
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To: xzins

Given that the two retailers are competing with different price models, it seems to me that competition. The only way it could be remotely considered for antitrust litigation would be if the publishers colluded to cut out the retailer that uses the model they don’t like.


6 posted on 04/11/2012 7:39:32 AM PDT by Squawk 8888 (Tories in- now the REAL work begins!)
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To: Squawk 8888

The problem is that if you use an ipad you get books for pennies, but anything else you pay the paper price for the book. Apple locked up that deal with publishers and cut everyone else out.

Amazon on the other hand has been running bookstores out of business by their pricing that delivers books to the door of your house cheaper or as cheap as stores can sell them off the shelf. Amazon has become the gorilla no one can compete with.

So, Apple versus Amazon seems a fair competition. We only need WalMart to get in the middle of it to have a tournament. :>)


7 posted on 04/11/2012 7:43:54 AM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain and Proud of It! Pray Continued Victory for our Troops Still in Afghan!)
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To: xzins
Curious... Can we American citizens, file an antitrust lawsuit against Congress and the Justice department for price fixing tax rates that discriminate against the poorest amongst us? I mean sheeeeze.... Because of the extreme amount of money one needs to earn in order to get the 'privilege' of paying taxes so few of our neighbors actually get to participate in the financing of our great nation. Shouldn't everyone be able to pay say??? 15% of their income into such a great and noble cause? Why should only the wealthiest of us get to have all the fun?

Just a thought. ;-)

8 posted on 04/11/2012 7:50:06 AM PDT by Whats-wrong-with-the-truth (Romney... Just put the (D) behind your name and be done with it.)
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To: Whats-wrong-with-the-truth

LOL!

We could file suit that a single flat rate tax doesn’t discriminate against our poorer citizens.

I’m with ya!


9 posted on 04/11/2012 7:53:38 AM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain and Proud of It! Pray Continued Victory for our Troops Still in Afghan!)
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To: Dan Nunn

What for? Jobs was a Berkeley liberal. Even gave Buttcrack a Iphone v5 prototype. And this is the thanks he gets.


10 posted on 04/11/2012 8:40:54 AM PDT by max americana
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To: xzins; Swordmaker

It was only a matter of time before the vultures of the Federal Government descended on Apple- one of the brightest examples of Capitalism at work one can find.

They beat on Microsoft. Now it’s Apple’s turn.

I’m trying to figure out what is so “anti-trust” about publishers making deals with book retailers. Barnes & Noble does it. Amazon does it, Wal Mart does it. But Apple is a ripe target.


11 posted on 04/11/2012 8:57:49 AM PDT by TheBattman (Isn't the lesser evil... still evil?)
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To: xzins

I’m not so sure- some books I have considered buying from Amazon lately (Kindle format) have been nearly as expensive as their price for the print version. Not all publishers play nice w/Amazon. They don’t cut any better deals for Apple.

Lets see- Amazon’s Kindle vs Apple’s iBooks, vs B&N Nook and the relative newcomer Google Books...

So let’s pick just one of those and file an anti-trust case against them.


12 posted on 04/11/2012 9:03:31 AM PDT by TheBattman (Isn't the lesser evil... still evil?)
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To: TheBattman

the publishers were attacking amazon. Apple actually colluded with the publishes to break amazon and use set prices (see price fixing) and more all ebooks to the istore.

There is merit to the case. I bet the people who are in that department of the doj are the parked lawyers who are not given plumb assignments of protecting black pathers or attacking republicans or “investigating” those who expose voter fraud.


13 posted on 04/11/2012 9:04:34 AM PDT by longtermmemmory (VOTE! http://www.senate.gov and http://www.house.gov)
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To: Squawk 8888

That would be what they did. They forced Amazopn to go to Apple’s model.


14 posted on 04/11/2012 9:17:12 AM PDT by green iguana
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To: Squawk 8888

the problem is the publishes and apple all conspired in a coordinated attack to fix the prices. No free market. The publishers wanted a guarantee set minimum price and apple colluded with them to create a anti-capitalist monopoly.


15 posted on 04/11/2012 9:21:40 AM PDT by longtermmemmory (VOTE! http://www.senate.gov and http://www.house.gov)
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To: xzins

it was amazon vs all of the others together.


16 posted on 04/11/2012 9:23:53 AM PDT by longtermmemmory (VOTE! http://www.senate.gov and http://www.house.gov)
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To: TheBattman

-—Lets see- Amazon’s Kindle vs Apple’s iBooks, vs B&N Nook and the relative newcomer Google Books... So let’s pick just one of those and file an anti-trust case against them.-—

It seems that Obama may be motivated by something other than the consumer’s best interest.

Fortunately, I know that’s not possible. Keep up the good work, Barky!


17 posted on 04/11/2012 9:30:16 AM PDT by St_Thomas_Aquinas (Viva Christo Rey!)
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To: Squawk 8888

Apple colluded with the big publishing houses to put the screws to Amazon. They (the publishing houses) then sent out a press release about it.

Pretty stupid.


18 posted on 04/11/2012 10:01:17 AM PDT by redgolum ("God is dead" -- Nietzsche. "Nietzsche is dead" -- God.)
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To: max americana

Sure Jobs was a liberal. But he was interested in himself first. To him, rules didn’t apply, no matter who tried to enforce them - liberals or conservatives.


19 posted on 04/11/2012 10:01:42 AM PDT by Dan Nunn (Support the NRA!)
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To: xzins

Apple just hasn’t ponied up enuf $$ to his re-erection effort.


20 posted on 04/11/2012 11:17:41 AM PDT by chooseascreennamepat (The response to 1984 is 1776.)
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To: xzins
Great! The DOJ sue over a e-book while while a couple of giant greedy oil companies monopolize,tell their outrageous lies,drive inflation and the cost of living and doing business through the roof.

Since they are and in reality likely to remain the only source of energy, with their extortion racket they are able to extort any amount for the economic life blood of the world's nations,by holding a pillow over the face of the national economies of the entire world.

I've been hearing our leaders promise an energy policy for about a half century. The energy we have now is the one we always have had since the turn of the last century, whatever the oil companies tell us.,p. The only time we have ever had plenty of oil, the oil companies tell us, is when we start halfheartedly looking at other sources of renewable, clean, unlimited energy,then the oil companies tell us we have plenty.

With their wealth and power they have successfully set and controlled our energy needs to their great profit. They have set the world's energy policy and it is this ,oil is going to be your main source of energy and you are going to pay our price for it period.

We have been ,we are and we will be the world's source of energy,there will be no competition from other sources of energy and since we eliminated most all of the hundreds of independent companies in the seventies the real purpose of that so called shortage.

Then you were stupid enough to let us complete the rest of our plan which was to reform our monopoly we had at the turn of the last century. To break out our giant umbrella using the excuse the standard excuse the other giant companies are using to form their monopolies, you know that they need to be large so they can complete in the Global Economy.

Well we are again and NOW we pull in more money each year than most countries and we have met the enemy [your politicians] and they are ours.

Did any you ever stop to wonder who we had to compete with and who and what we were going to control once we were large, powerful and rich enough. ?

One of the major goals of big business is to beat the competition.

Monopolies do not beat they completely eliminate them. Without competition the Free Enterprise System cannot work as that is the only source of price control in it to protect society from unreasonable prices and uncontrollable greed on things they must have to work, live and maintain reasonable standard of life,

We to have a large middle class to keep enough cash flowing to keep the economy and country healthy.

Without some form of price control, either artificial or that bought on by competition on the vital necessities needed to live food ,clothing, shelter medical and energy which affects the cost of all the others our economy and country will fail and violence, death and anarchy will prevail.

We are further along the way than most think and time is vital before we pass the point of no return if we haven't already.

There is no time left to wait on an election of more of same useful idiots we have been getting, regardless of party.

Our leaders and their their rich benefactors had better ask themselves how or they going to reason with millions of jobless, homeless and starving angry people made that way by a bloated, all consuming, corrupt, extremely wasteful,totally out of control spending Congress and Executive Branch.

Do not be foolish enough to think that sooner or later you or yours will not feel some of the pain of the result

Welcome to the New World Business Plan.

My apologies for the lenght.MSRN

21 posted on 04/11/2012 11:59:21 AM PDT by mississippi red-neck (You will never win the war on terrorism by fighting it in Iraq and funding it in the West Bank.)
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To: mississippi red-neck

Before I read the remainder of your post, I want to comment that I don’t think the oil companies drive the program here. I think it’s the oil countries that do so, and I think their power is not addressed.

After all, our own president bowed to the king of mecca.


22 posted on 04/11/2012 12:25:43 PM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain and Proud of It! Pray Continued Victory for our Troops Still in Afghan!)
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To: xzins

None of this would be happening if Jobs was still alive. They just want Apple’s money.


23 posted on 04/11/2012 12:55:15 PM PDT by qaz123
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To: xzins

How can you be a trust.... when you aren’t even #1??

Can they actually explain this in a way that makes any sense?

I doubt it.


24 posted on 04/11/2012 1:03:04 PM PDT by GeronL (The Right to Life came before the Right to Pursue Happiness)
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To: TheBattman

You aren’t #1 and you definitely do not dominate the market and you are not the only source for the product.

How can you be in violation of “anti-trust” laws?

Of course they will settle because fighting in court is more expensive.


25 posted on 04/11/2012 1:06:22 PM PDT by GeronL (The Right to Life came before the Right to Pursue Happiness)
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To: GeronL

I can explain to you as a consumer. My wife has a nook. She has to pay full price for books that are simply digits because of the agreement Apple has with the publishers.

If you use an Ipad, you pay the digital price....very low in the neighborhood of a buck or so.

IOW, this agreement removes the value of digital books reading from all those who don’t have IPads.

It is very annoying, but it’s probably annoying to other businesses that Amazon can underprice them so badly and sell at a loss until the competition is out of business.


26 posted on 04/11/2012 1:07:38 PM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain and Proud of It! Pray Continued Victory for our Troops Still in Afghan!)
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To: mississippi red-neck

The vast majority of oil is owned by governments.


27 posted on 04/11/2012 1:08:27 PM PDT by GeronL (The Right to Life came before the Right to Pursue Happiness)
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To: xzins

My niece has a Nook and our laptop has a Kindle app and we can also order through other websites or go to new and used book stores. On my laptop I have only downloaded free ebooks from the Kindle app, like the original Dracula and stuff.

I don’t think government involvement will improve the system any. I think its very possible we end up with much less competition.


28 posted on 04/11/2012 1:13:12 PM PDT by GeronL (The Right to Life came before the Right to Pursue Happiness)
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To: qaz123

no it would be happening. I think the actual case has merit.


29 posted on 04/11/2012 2:14:15 PM PDT by longtermmemmory (VOTE! http://www.senate.gov and http://www.house.gov)
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To: GeronL

the issue was the collusion.

publishers and apple colluded to have a universal price and lock out any competition. Apple wants ALL books to go through their apple store and the publishers want to control all prices to prevent any price other than the one they set.

Amazon was dictating to publishers and publishers did not like that. They banded together to fix prices. That is totally illegal.


30 posted on 04/11/2012 2:19:56 PM PDT by longtermmemmory (VOTE! http://www.senate.gov and http://www.house.gov)
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To: GeronL

the issue was the collusion.

publishers and apple colluded to have a universal price and lock out any competition. Apple wants ALL books to go through their apple store and the publishers want to control all prices to prevent any price other than the one they set.

Amazon was dictating to publishers and publishers did not like that. They banded together to fix prices. That is totally illegal.


31 posted on 04/11/2012 2:27:34 PM PDT by longtermmemmory (VOTE! http://www.senate.gov and http://www.house.gov)
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To: TheBattman

Starting out with the acknowledgement that I don’t think that there’s any place in the Constitution for anti-trust prosecution, if they are going to abuse the copyright clause’s directive to make it limited time and turn it into infinite, then I suppose this is the end result...

ANYWAY, Apple colluded with the major publishers to establish agency pricing and ban the wholesale sale of books. The theory is that the publishers merely decided to no longer sell eBooks, but instead are selling licenses to read them. This, therefore, is the foundation for the legality of the agency pricing. Since it is a license, it doesn’t really matter what the product is, or who made it, they’ve set a price for that, and offer those who wish to sell those licenses (and administer them) a commission of 30% of the retail price.

This is price fixing to me. Wouldn’t mind the investigation broadening a bit into Apple’s software market. Because every legal argument used against Microsoft over the years applies in spades to Apple.


32 posted on 04/11/2012 3:05:30 PM PDT by kingu (Everything starts with slashing the size and scope of the federal government.)
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To: longtermmemmory

Amazon was dictating to publishers

That sounds like an anti-trust violation

Book publishers have every right to set the wholesale price of their products to distributors. It happens in every business.


33 posted on 04/11/2012 3:31:47 PM PDT by GeronL (The Right to Life came before the Right to Pursue Happiness)
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To: longtermmemmory; All
Except that isn't what happened.

Apple wanted to ensure its customers wouldn't be abused by premium prices and subsidizing Amazon or other devices. They insisted on best pricing in exchange for access to their customers. Apple didn't care what the pricing was, that was for publishers to determine for their books, it only wanted to make sure its customers got the best deal.

We see this all the time with Walmart and others commanding best prices from suppliers, for example. We even see it with nations' trading, Canada has been selling the US its oil at a substantial discount--something Obama's Keystone XL mess has jeopardized.

According to figures from last year, Amazon has 52-67% of the ebook market, Barnes & Noble has 20-22%. Apple operates out of that last piece of the ebook market.

What's really happening here is Democrats see a wildly successful capitalist venture, one which until recently has been hoarding billions in cash and they're looking for creative ways to get at those dollars and interfere in the emerging marketplace.

Amazon's monopoly position in ebooks and Godzilla position for bookselling generally meant fresh competition could only thrive if the rules changed and publishers had more control. Apple's platform offered publishers a bit of leverage to change their pricing model.

Price fixing depends on participants on the same side of the market to agree. However, in this case Apple is just an ebook reseller, not a publisher. Publishers set the pricing; Apple wasn't setting prices with Amazon & BN. It makes little sense to drag Apple into this case other than for notoriety and access to its deep pockets.

34 posted on 04/11/2012 4:07:59 PM PDT by newzjunkey (Newt says, "A nominee that depresses turnout won't beat Barack Obama.")
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To: All

This is just a shakedown...


35 posted on 04/11/2012 4:42:44 PM PDT by KevinDavis (Go Mitt Go!!!)
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To: mississippi red-neck

Chevron’s estimated profit per gallon of gasoline or diesel produced: Approx 2 cents per gallon.

Average retailer’s profit per gallon: 7 cents per gallon.

Federal taxes per gallon of gasoline: 18.4 cents per gallon.

California’s taxes per gallon of gasoline: 50.5 cents per gallon.

YES! Let’s go after the actual monopolies that are driving up the cost of gasoline - the GOVERNMENT. Because ‘’big oil’’ isn’t the problem here, and never was.


36 posted on 04/11/2012 4:42:58 PM PDT by kingu (Everything starts with slashing the size and scope of the federal government.)
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To: xzins

“Under the Antitrust laws, a man becomes a criminal from the moment he goes into business, no matter what he does. For instance, if he charges prices which some bureaucrats judge as too high, he can be prosecuted for monopoly or for a successful “intent to monopolize”; if he charges prices lower than those of his competitors, he can be prosecuted for “unfair competition” or “restraint of trade”; and if he charges the same prices as his competitors, he can be prosecuted for “collusion” or “conspiracy.” There is only one difference in the legal treatment accorded to a criminal or to a businessman: the criminal’s rights are protected much more securely and objectively than the businessman’s.”

Ayn Rand


37 posted on 04/11/2012 6:18:44 PM PDT by RWB Patriot ("My ability is a value that must be purchased and I don't recognize anyone's need as a claim on me.")
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To: RWB Patriot

OH HOW I HATE THIS GUBMINT


38 posted on 04/11/2012 9:45:27 PM PDT by joyce11111
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To: joyce11111

Yeah, smells to me like Apple didn’t give enough to the Obama re-election fund...and now Obama’s having Holder shake them down for it.


39 posted on 04/12/2012 7:23:34 AM PDT by Braak (The US Military, the real arms inspectors!)
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To: xzins; ~Kim4VRWC's~; 1234; Abundy; Action-America; acoulterfan; AFreeBird; Airwinger; Aliska; ...
Apple and the publishers are being sued by the Feds for anti-trust for supposedly "price fixing" yet, the publishers set the prices they want for their e-books sold on the iBook store... Apple's contract merely says that the book cannot be sold elsewhere for less. This, after Amazon, because of their monopolistic market share before the advent of Apple's iBook store, had told the publishers that ALL ebooks would be sold for $9.99, regardless of cost to the publisher in royalties, etc.—PING!

One publishing CEO in refusing to submit to the government, by filing this action, stated that the "Justice Department is going to destroy true competition for the MERE APPEARANCE of competition!"


Apple anti-trust Ping!

Please, No Flame Wars!
Discuss technical issues, software, and hardware.
Don't attack people!
Don't respond to the Anti-Apple Thread Trolls!
PLEASE IGNORE THEM!!!

If you want on or off the Mac Ping List, Freepmail me.

40 posted on 04/12/2012 10:55:15 AM PDT by Swordmaker
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To: mississippi red-neck
Monopolies do not beat they completely eliminate them. Without competition the Free Enterprise System cannot work

Ever hear of OPEC? I think the very existence of OPEC is an act of war, but I guess we like that transfer of wealth.

41 posted on 04/12/2012 11:16:15 AM PDT by itsahoot (I will not vote for Romney period, and by election day you won't like him either.)
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To: Cringing Negativism Network
How’s that “Made in China” think working out Apple?

How’s that “Made in China” think working out Apple, HP, Dell, IBM, Sony, Gateway, Packard Bell, etc.? There, fixed it for you.

42 posted on 04/12/2012 11:22:41 AM PDT by Swordmaker
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To: mississippi red-neck
... while while a couple of giant greedy oil companies monopolize,tell their outrageous lies,drive inflation and the cost of living and doing business through the roof.

And which oil companies would those be? I'll give them a call and straighten things out.

First, though, I would like to say that your understanding of free enterprise and of the oil patch are lacking for you to think this. (You are not Bill O'Reilly by any chance are you?)

The croney capitalisim going on is between politicians and Wall Street and politicians and these phoney "green" energy companies like Sylindra and MS(?) Global. Big Oil is not involved. In fact, this administration is making it very difficult on the oil industry and they are even talking about the government fixing prices and an "excess profits" tax. All those things do is diminish supply and raise prices.

43 posted on 04/12/2012 2:18:40 PM PDT by Mind-numbed Robot
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To: Swordmaker
How’s that “Made in China” think working out Apple, HP, Dell, IBM, Sony, Gateway, Packard Bell, etc.?

-

Great question!!

Actually, it cost IBM their personal computer business itself. Gone, lost to China. Now known as "Lenovo".

Wonder what the Chicoms will name Apple?

44 posted on 04/12/2012 8:10:00 PM PDT by Cringing Negativism Network
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To: xzins
I could have predicted this, but Apple does have a point about Amazon dominating the market.

In that case, this would be 2 giants slugging it out, so I’m not sure it rises to the level of anti-trust.


Yeah, Amazon pissed off the publishers, so the publishers worked out a deal with Apple. When Apple passes Amazon up on the e-book sales, and is controlling the large majority of hte market, then let's talk.

But for now I'm wondering if Amazon pressured the government to file charges.
45 posted on 04/12/2012 8:16:31 PM PDT by af_vet_rr
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To: longtermmemmory
the problem is the publishes and apple all conspired in a coordinated attack to fix the prices. No free market. The publishers wanted a guarantee set minimum price and apple colluded with them to create a anti-capitalist monopoly.

If Amazon and Barnes and Noble only had say 10% of the market and Apple had over 75%, I'd agree with you.

But Apple is nowhere near close to having a true monopoly.

This isn't a business like say internet service providers where they are able to keep competitors out and they are free to all have nearly the same prices and they have the local politicians endorsing said monopolies - now that's an anti-capitalist monopoly (no surprise that they own liberal networks like NBC and CNN).

Hell, Apple's iBooks store has been around just over two years. When Amazon starts losing entire publishing catalogs to Apple, then let's talk. But I'm not seeing any major players deciding to only go with Apple just yet.
46 posted on 04/12/2012 8:23:04 PM PDT by af_vet_rr
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To: longtermmemmory

Who, exactly, sets the price for Kindle-edition books on Amazon? I always thought it was the publisher (based upon a certain amount the publisher is to receive for each purchase). Much like traditional print books - publishers have “suggested prices”, but they sell to booksellers at a certain price - the bookseller then sells at a particular mark-up.

What I have found - that isn’t always the case now. For some retailers, it is practically on a consignment arrangement.

But back to eBooks - I thought the eBook arrangement was similar - publisher x hypothetically expects say $5 per copy of the Kindle (or iBooks) edition... expecting Amazon (or Apple) to set price accordingly.

Now I read that pricing may be more like the app stores - the eSeller gets a flat percentage of revenues generated by a particular title. Thus the seller has more control over the price than the publisher (and writer).

So how did Apple collude with the publishers? Apple has no control over Amazon or how they do business. Apple can only make their own deals with publishers and allow the market to sort things out.

Unless I am missing something.


47 posted on 04/13/2012 1:40:34 PM PDT by TheBattman (Isn't the lesser evil... still evil?)
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To: longtermmemmory

Exactly what is “anti-trust” over a producer (or in this case, publisher) to set a minimum price they will accept for their product (physical or electronic)? Again - in a truly free market - consumers are free to not buy.

We don’t need the DOJ to “protect” us - we just need to choose wisely how we spend our income. Nobody is forcing consumers to purchase books at all - much less the much vaunted “eBooks”, Kindle or otherwise.

And back to truly free market - publisher X demands certain prices. Sales plummet. Publisher either goes out of business, or changes business model.


48 posted on 04/13/2012 1:54:28 PM PDT by TheBattman (Isn't the lesser evil... still evil?)
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To: mississippi red-neck

HECK YEAH!!! Drop the Apple case, and focus on something more important - investigate and file suit against BIG OIL! The greedy bastards! They collude to drive up our prices, also they can make close to 10% profit! That is a horrendous amount of profit. NO company should make more than 1%... 5 % if they are politically on the correct side of the fence...

[/sarcasm]


49 posted on 04/13/2012 2:01:03 PM PDT by TheBattman (Isn't the lesser evil... still evil?)
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To: af_vet_rr

Interesting mix of political donations (by Amazon.com):

http://www.opensecrets.org/pacs/pacgot.php?cycle=2012&cmte=C00360354


50 posted on 04/13/2012 2:04:50 PM PDT by TheBattman (Isn't the lesser evil... still evil?)
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