Posted on 04/14/2012 6:35:54 PM PDT by Jet Jaguar
Still, though, I feel bad that it put that many people out of work.
Agreed.
Very sad.
“[executives] taking a larger share of a shrinking pie.”
“union bashing”
Sorry to burst your ignorant bubbble but unions take many times more than executives do. Every union member pays dues and those dues exceed by 100 times the total salaries of all the executives combined.
“Sorry to burst your ignorant bubbble but unions take many times more than executives do. Every union member pays dues and those dues exceed by 100 times the total salaries of all the executives combined.”
If what you say is true, I’d appreciate you sharing the real data from a real company and its union. Provide a list of executives and their annual salaries, bonuses, and the value of options granted. Also provide documentation from the union as to the union dues collected from workers at that same company. You call me ignorant, let’s see the facts upon which your statement is based.
My job isn’t to educate you; you don’t pay me for that. My job is to alert you to your own fallacies and let you discover the facts on your own. Being gullible to liberal talking points and being too lazy to learn is no way to go through life.
Since you are pro-union, I thought for sure you would know a company, a union, and the union dues paid, but by your words you do not. You are talking pro-union from a point of ignorance. So go learn what union dues were paid by the workers at Hostess and let us know just how much they collected every year.
We have to understand how to make human nature work for us, and not try to change it, because that will never happen, outside of creating a police state like Stalin’s Russia.
Here is what you sill unions did to pump profits to workers while disabling profits by the company:
“The Teamsters contract stipulates that Wonderbread and Twinkies going to the SAME STORE must be delivered in DIFFERENT trucks driven by DIFFERENT drivers and unloaded by the APPROPRIATE driver.”
Unions: Stupid beyond words. I count that action as money to the union, not just their dues, but money they demand the company pays in silly crap like this. How much money did each truck and driver cost all in the name of the union? Huh? How much? Too much, and you defend that crap.
What makes you say I am pro union? I’ve run companies with factories and distribution centers in the southeast for over 30 years. Not one has ever been organized. Just because I challenged a very specific claim you made, doesn’t mean I’m pro union.
You don’t have the facts to back up a claim you made. You make false claims about people you perceive disagree with you. Your behavior is characteristic of liberal Democrats.
“You don’t have the facts to back up a claim you made.”
Son, you talk out your ass so much you need to cut a hole in your britches. Seriously, you make the typical statements about corporations and then support unions and you want us to beleive you are not a union thug supporting liberal? Get real. Your posts are nothing but liberal talking points about unions versus corporations, and all of it stinks to high heaven.
“For those convinced that union greed is the source of this nation’s economic ills, consider that in 1965 the average CEO earned 24 times the pay of the average worker. By 2005 the average CEO earned 262 times the pay of the average worker. By 2010 it was 343 times the average worker salary. “
Let’s just start with that liberal talking point you posted. Go ahead and show us the data on that little lie. Go ahead. Tell us just what CEOs were looked at versus their workers. Name the companies, the CEOs and the data of their incomes and the incomes of the average worker. Go ahead, you liberal liar, (Yes I said LIAR!) post your data since you are so big on proving things. I’ve been all around business and I can’t find a single CEO that makes 343 times the average worker. In fact, my current CEO makes just 5 times what I do and maybe 10 times the average.
I am sick and tired of you and your fellow liberals lying all the time and it sticking. You said it, so back it up asshole!
Unions have become powerful and corrupt.
“How much? Too much, and you defend that crap.”
I don’t recall ever making a comment supporting union work rules creating inefficiency for the company.
Have you considered the union contract and work rules were agreed to by management? Union contracts are the product of a negotiation between management and labor, they are not imposed by the union. Have you considered the fact this is the second time Hostess filed for bankruptcy. It also declared bankruptcy on September 22, 2004 when it was operated under the name Interstate Bakeries. It did not emerge from bankruptcy until February 2009. The union workers made concessions at the time in exchange for equity in the reorganized company. During the bankruptcy the workforce declined from 32,000 to 22,000 employees. In January 2012, when it filed for bankruptcy again, it had 19,000 employees.
If this company is well managed, why has it gone through bankruptcy twice in ten years? If union work rules, pay rates, and high cost benefit plans were the major cause of the company not being able to make money, why didn’t management get the bankruptcy court order greater union concessions the first time the company went into bankruptcy? If the company’s union plants were not competitive, why didn’t the company outsource production to more efficient contract bakeries? Many American companies have successfully outsourced production to lower production costs.
Contrary to your statements I am not a fan of unions. It has been my experience running manufacturing companies that employees turn to unions when they are poorly managed. If employees are paid competitively, have decent working conditions, and are supervised fairly it is very difficult for unions to force their way in. When management underpays versus competition, working conditions are poor, and management is abusive the workplace becomes fertile for organization by a union.
Two bankruptcies in ten years suggest Hostess is a troubled company. Based on the press reports I’ve read to date I perceive the union was foolish to strike in January of this year and refuse concessions given the state of the company. However, I don’t know the working conditions the Hostess workers faced everyday, I don’t know if the supervision of these union employees was good or abusive, I don’t know if the workers were overpaid or underpaid versus competition, and I don’t know if the management of the company was making poor decisions in other facets of the business which were complicating matters or alienating the workers. I also don’t know what concessions the union gave when the company exited bankruptcy in 2009 and if the promises made to the workers at that time by management were delivered. Without that knowledge it is difficult for me to lay 100% of the blame on the union for the liquidation of the company. I just don’t have the facts, perhaps you do.
“Unions have become powerful and corrupt.’
Unions do not have exclusivity with respect to corruption. The recent MF Global scandal demonstrates corruption exists in the financial community as well. Enron is another recent example of corporate corruption. There is also significant corruption in government and academia.
There was a day when business contracts were executed with a handshake. There was also a day when people left the doors of their houses unlocked. At that time most politicians cared about the country and many served in the military, risking their lives for their country. Those days are behind us.
Sources for CEO versus worker pay:
http://www.epi.org/publication/webfeatures_snapshots_20060621/
http://www.verisi.com/resources/us-ceo-compensation.htm
http://www.epi.org/publication/ib331-ceo-pay-top-1-percent/
And from that flaming liberal publication Forbes: http://www.forbes.com/sites/scottdecarlo/2012/04/04/americas-highest-paid-ceos/
If you’d like to see the pay of the Fortune 50 CEO’s compared with average worker salaries by company: http://www.payscale.com/ceo-income/fortune-50
I’m still waiting for the backup to your claims. Do you have the pay for the top 10 Hostess executives? Do you have the pay rate for the average union worker at Hostess? Do you have the same for the competitors of Hostess?
We also have those union bosses making 6 figures on the backs of union members, producing absolutely NOTHING.
The TEAMSTERS accepted the Hostess deal because knew the company would crash because of it.
“Here are the salaries of your union thug bosses. Imagine that, they take a lot of money out of the system just in their salaries.”
Thank you for the information.
You might find the business magazine Fortune’s take on the Hostess story interesting. In 2009 the unions gave $110 million in wage and benefit concessions in order to help the company exit bankruptcy. In January 2012 the company declared bankruptcy for a second time. In February 2012 the company asked the bankruptcy judge to guarantee the CEO annual pay of $1.5 million, and give him long term compensation worth $2 million. Plus a severance guarantee of $1.95 million. The previous year four top Hostess executives received pay increases of 80%. Do you think it is appropriate for management to be giving extraordinarily large pay increases and severance agreements to senior executives and at the same time demand the workers take an 8% pay cut and reduced benefits? Here’s the link to the Fortune article. http://management.fortune.cnn.com/2012/07/26/hostess-twinkies-bankrupt/
I suggest you read the Fortune article on the demise of Hostess. Here is the link: http://management.fortune.cnn.com/2012/07/26/hostess-twinkies-bankrupt/
It appears management was dramatically increasing its own salaries at the same time it was demanding concession from the union workers. When the company exited bankruptcy in 2009 it extracted $110 million in concession from the unions plus let go thousands of workers. It is hard to maintain credibility with your workforce when you talk “shared sacrifice” but don’t walk the talk.
You don’t even know the data sources for those charts. You simply read them and took in the liberal talking points about it.
Here are the FACTS: Those reports took into account stock valuations as income. So Bill Gate’s salary was $240,000 but because his stock holdings went up they counted that. That isn’t money from the company, that is his stock increasing in value. I know that went over your head but the fact is Bill Gates was not paid 300+ times the average employee of his company. In fact, several people made more than he did. Typical liberal lying about the facts in that report.
“Name the companies, the CEOs and the data of their incomes and the incomes of the average worker. Go ahead, you liberal liar, (Yes I said LIAR!) post your data since you are so big on proving things.”
Here are the facts and the sources:
http://www.dailyfinance.com/2010/07/07/how-many-workers-can-you-hire-for-the-price-of-one-ceo/
http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/money/companies/management/story/CEO-pay-2010/45634384/1
http://www.ips-dc.org/reports/executive_excess_2009
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702304458604577490842584787190.html
http://griid.org/2011/04/06/ceo-pay-soars-while-workers-pay-stalls/
I would appreciate you not calling me a LIAR. As you can see, there are multiple sourcing backing up my statements.
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