2 ATF agents: Our hands were tied, so guns walked ( Fast and Furious )

Arizona Daily Star ^ | April 15, 2012 | Tim Steller

[george76]

Two of the supervising agents implicated in the Operation Fast and Furious gun-trafficking scandal are mounting a counteroffensive, arguing they had no choice but to let criminal suspects buy guns.

Last month, lawyers for ATF supervisors Bill Newell and David Voth sent letters to two members of Congress who are leading an investigation into the Phoenix-based probe of people buying guns in Arizona for criminals in Mexico.

One of their key arguments: From the operation's inception in September 2009 until June 2010, federal prosecutors told the bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives agents running the investigation that they did not have probable cause to arrest the people buying the weapons or seize the guns from them. During that time, suspects bought the majority of the nearly 2,000 guns they ended up purchasing while being investigated.

"According to the prosecutor, the agents lacked sufficient evidence that the firearms were illegally purchased, and it would have been unlawful for the agents to seize them," attorney Joshua Levy said in a letter on Voth's behalf to Rep. Darrell Issa, R-Calif., and Sen. Charles Grassley, R-Iowa. "Under those circumstances, non-interdiction by the agents is not gunwalking."

This version of events runs counter to what Issa and Grassley have found in their investigation of Fast and Furious, which has singled out Voth, then the group supervisor overseeing the case, and Newell, then the special agent in charge of ATF's Phoenix division.

"Allowing guns to fall into the hands of the (drug trafficking organizations) was the operation's central goal," a staff report written for Issa and Grassley concluded last year.

[george76]

the two former ATF supervisors say agents chafed against the limits put on them by prosecutors at the U.S. Attorney’s Office in Phoenix.

But they claim that they had to abide by the prosecutors’ decisions

[Army Air Corps]

Ping.

[Lurker]

And who is in charge of the US Attorneys office....wait a minute, it’ll come to me....

[TigersEye]

The ATF requested that gun shops sell to straw-buyers that didn't pass NICS background checks. As all gun dealers know a "request" from ATF is refused at their legal peril.

ATF field agents were ordered to let the straw-buyers cross the border and leave their surveillance, against their own strenuous objections, or "find another job."

Here is testimony, under oath, to all of the above by four ATF field agents.

The Department of Justice ’ s Operation Fast and Furious: Accounts of ATF Agents

Guns are not out of control. The Federal government is out of control.

[BCR #226]

Doesn’t matter... All of them need to be thrown under the jail. If their hands were tied, they should have gone public with the situation and maybe some lives would have been saved.

Sorry, but I’m calling BS on their statements.

[Nachum]

The list, Ping

Let me know if you would like to be on or off the ping list

http://www.nachumlist.com/

[nvscanman]

That type of mentality was no defense at Nuremberg and it
should not be allowed here. These agents knew that laws
were being violated. Just because a superior agent or a
US Attorney told them to allow the law breaking does not
mean jacks**t. Wrong is wrong, these agents knew what was
happening was wrong and they did nothing....not even go
to the media with evidence to at least get the light of public opinion shining on the crimes. These two are just
as culpable as the rest all the way up the chain to Holder and his enabler Obama.

[hosepipe]

What do you call it WHEN a Conspiracy Theory becomes a FACT?...

I have a feeling the entire Obama Administration is Compiracy Fact..
Mega-Conspiracys composed of many Micro-Compiracys..
One big old seditious Trojan Horse of a treasonous Cabal..

How can you explain the inventor of Romney-Care running against the inventor of Obama-Care?..
Obviously the voting machines have been compromised..

[Travis McGee]

Yep, their excuse is pitifully weak.

[philman_36]

It's plain to see that the "dazzle them with brilliance" campaign didn't work
so now it's on to the "baffle them with BS" campaign.
Anything that'll push it past November.

[TigersEye]

Last month, lawyers for ATF supervisors Bill Newell and David Voth sent letters...

If I'm not mistaken these two nozzles are some of the ones that were telling field agents to get new jobs if they didn't like it.

[PowderMonkey]

We are all painfully familiar with how such things begin. This is how they end. Anyone who wears a badge and gun, anyone in authority, or who sits in judgment of others...See: Judgment

[Condor51]

So I *guess* that 'Our Hands Were Tied' is the new version of the 'I Was Just Following Orders' defense. But iirc that defense didn't exactly fly - except for the guys that were HUNG. They 'flew' pretty good. ;-)

So I think they'd be better off with the 'Twinkie Defense' -- 'We were high on sugar and didn't know what we were doing'. That worked at least once.

[Condor51]

*** That type of mentality was no defense at Nuremberg and it should not be allowed here ***

Honest. I did not see your post before I wrote mine (#14).

[zeugma]

How can you explain the inventor of Romney-Care running against the inventor of Obama-Care?..

The same way you explain having two presidential candidates last go-round that each had issues with being "natural born" citizens. The game is completely rigged, and has been for a long time.

[imardmd1]

Two of the supervising agents implicated in the Operation Fast and Furious gun-trafficking scandal are mounting a counteroffensive, arguing they had no choice but to let criminal suspects buy guns. (my emphasis)

"Nicht schultig" echoes once more. "I only obeyed my orders" -- when will this cowpoop be stopped?

Nuremberg was only a milestone on the progressive/dereligionize/abortion/"gay"/socialist/totalitarianism path for a culture --

[supercat]

All of them need to be thrown under the jail.

There are two conflicting arguments regarding what to do with agents in that situation:

1. If they are punished, then agents with information about illegal activities in which they happen to have been begrudging participants may decide it's better to keep mum and hope nobody finds out, than to come forward and reveal their own complicity.
2. If agents expect that they'll be able to escape punishment for begrudging complicity in illegal activities, they are far less likely to refuse such complicity.

I think it's important to strike a good balance: people who conspire in illegal activities should generally not be allowed to totally escape punishment, but the amount of punishment given to those who come forward early should be diminished according to the likelihood that they might have escaped detection had they not done so. Agents should be encouraged to come forward early, while the rewards for doing so are still available.

[gonzo]

Time to saddle-up .................................................................................. FRegards