Posted on 07/15/2012 4:35:34 PM PDT by WilliamIII
IN 1998, John Shelby Spong, then the reliably controversial Episcopal bishop of Newark, published a book entitled “Why Christianity Must Change or Die.” Spong was a uniquely radical figure — during his career, he dismissed almost every element of traditional Christian faith as so much superstition — but most recent leaders of the Episcopal Church have shared his premise. Thus their church has spent the last several decades changing and then changing some more, from a sedate pillar of the WASP establishment into one of the most self-consciously progressive Christian bodies in the United States. Go to Columnist Page » Ross Douthat’s Evaluations
The columnist’s blog on politics and culture. More From Evaluations » Related
Times Topic: Episcopal Church
Josh Haner/The New York Times Ross Douthat Readers’ Comments Readers shared their thoughts on this article. Read All Comments (323) » As a result, today the Episcopal Church looks roughly how Roman Catholicism would look if Pope Benedict XVI suddenly adopted every reform ever urged on the Vatican by liberal pundits and theologians. It still has priests and bishops, altars and stained-glass windows. But it is flexible to the point of indifference on dogma, friendly to sexual liberation in almost every form, willing to blend Christianity with other faiths, and eager to downplay theology entirely in favor of secular political causes.
Yet instead of attracting a younger, more open-minded demographic with these changes, the Episcopal Church’s dying has proceeded apace.
(Excerpt) Read more at nytimes.com ...
I am part of a non-denominational group that is Bible based. They do not teach or preach liberal politics or theology. Politics gets very little attention... less than I would prefer personally. That being said, the focus is not on saving people with a political agenda. Remember, most of the Jews who rejected Jesus did so because they were expecting a political and military savior rather than someone Who would save them from sin. That is exactly what I am talking about here. Homosexuality is identified as sin and preached against. But you do not have to be homosexual to be on your way to hell. And adopting conservative political views will not save you even if it went so far as to abstain from immorality.
My conservative views spring from my Christian world-view, but I do not confuse the two. A conservative world-view is, by itself, not enough to save anyone from sin.
“You’re not comprehending the issue.”
I think I do. The author made a clever play on words about salvation but with the intended meaning of preserving the existence of liberal Christendom rather than salvation from sin which is the real issue.
Many of the comments seem to indicate a similar misunderstanding that conservative politics is a prerequisite to being born again. While I do believe Christians who seek God diligently and grow in His Word will see through the deception of leftist politics, I also recognize that believers have different levels of maturity and also can be deceived.
“You support the killing of nascent life? That’s a fundamental tenet of so-called Liberal Christianity.”
I am 100% pro-life. Let me give you some examples of how true believers can be deceived on this issue. I have talked first hand with Christian doctors who delivered babies and prescribed birth control pills to prevent new mothers from conceiving too soon after giving birth. Birth control pills are definitely, scientifically and medically abortifacient. Some Christian doctors do not know this in spite of (or maybe because of) their medical training.
I have heard fertility clinics advertised on Christian radio programs. Anyone who understands life begins at conception should be aware that far more abortions are performed by these businesses than abortion clinics.
Even in the Christian movie called Facing the Giants, the star writer and director gives the reason for his Christian-informed decision to forego fertility treatments as being because they didn’t have enough money. What he should of told the doctor is that he believes life begins at conception and would not be able to violate his conscience by having a test tube baby requiring the formation of multiple embryos which will mostly be discarded, destroyed, or even worse, used for scientific research and then destroyed. This film-maker is definitely a true believer in Christ as far as I can see. He probably considers himself pro-life. Yet his ignorance and being deceived about this led to a serious mistake in an otherwise excellent film.
Bill Clinton’s pastor advised him that life begins when a baby is born and takes its first breath because God breathed into man who then became a living soul. This is not biblically sound, nor does Clinton seem to have any indication of being a believer; but it does show you an argument that could mislead a true believer.
“You support the states’ redefinition of marriage; a direct assault against Christianity? “
I believe what Jesus and the apostles taught, that fornicators (whether sodomites or heterosexual) must repent or will go to hell. I also believe there will be many people who never committed this particular sin who will be in hell for eternity, and some of them will be Republicans.
I agree. I have also read many of your comments in the past and often find myself enlightened by them. Keep using your gift.
My point is not to agree with liberal theology but to point out that true believers have the capacity to be deceived by it as much as other lies. This will harm them and others, but it is still not the litmus test for what makes someone a believer or not.
Agreed. I’m afraid though that he and many more “conservatives” may be close enough to the truth to be desensitized to the conviction of sin needed to be saved. An atheist knows he is not a believer. A Muslim or Hindu knows the same. But people who have grown up in or around Christianity are at great risk of mistakenly thinking they are somehow automatically Christian. Or even worse, they may have done some act that they think makes them a Christian - said a prayer, raised their hands, walked an aisle, got baptized, joined a church, etc. These might be good things, but they are no guarantee of a genuine salvation. I wish I could say otherwise, but I have no reason at all to believe Rush is a believer in Christ. His brother apparently is. So you are right. There is hope.
You are right about liberal theology. Unfortunately there are real Christians who are deceived by it. If just the true believers in Christ who are caught up in this deception could be delivered from it, we would have a major shift in our country to the right. I wish I knew how to persuade more to rethink their beliefs on this. I do have one liberal leaning Christian friend who is starting to come around. We just need a few million more.
“But people who have grown up in or around Christianity are at great risk of mistakenly thinking they are somehow automatically Christian. Or even worse, they may have done some act that they think makes them a Christian...”
___________
Hadn’t thought of this. Food for thought.
>> I think I do. The author made a clever play on words about salvation but with the intended meaning of preserving the existence of liberal Christendom rather than salvation from sin which is the real issue.
By “issue”, I was referring to the criticism of Liberalism, and the negative impact it has on Christianity — specifically, the “understood” forms of abortion, and the homosexuality you generalized as fornication. The comments condemned this negative influence, but I didn’t notice comments suggesting Liberals are undeserving of Salvation.
I certainly wouldn’t question your Faith nor comprehension of it.
FWIW, I’m not that interested in qualifying how others practice their faith. That’s between them and whatever they’re praying to. On the other hand, I take exception to the abuse of my Faith which is most often condemned by the Left, and misrepresented by some in the Liberal camp.
Well, as a Methodist, all I can say is Thank God for the African Methodists. If not for them, we’d have gone the same way as the Episcopals.
Was in Tallahassee this weekend. Drove by my father’s old church, St. John’s Episcopal. Most of the congregation decamped and they’re left with a tired old pile that costs a fortune to maintain and a Bishop with expensive tastes.
Meanwhile, the Anglican church they joined are getting ready to build a Cathedral!
Thank you for your kind words. Give glory to God if anything I write here at FR is truly enlightening.
And you are right: the double-mindedness needed to believe both the Gospel and “liberal” ideas is quite feasible for fallen men and women. The best thing to do with such folks is to pray that the Gospel will prevail in their hearts. Unfortunately when they act publicly in ways which will deceive others, especially into confounding modern “liberal” ideas with the Gospel, it is also necessary to publicly oppose them.
Believers in Christ are saved for good works rather than by them. As a Bible-believer I’m sure you know this. Yes, many groups that identify as Christian have turned away from God and are being led by impostors who are not even believers. These leaders along with many politicians who trifle with scripture, men like Obama who has no fear to use scripture to argue for things completely against God, are very disturbing. I am not offended by your comments, but am concerned than so many here seem to equate conservative politics with being a believer in Christ.
We are not going to persuade politicians and clergymen who have hardened their hearts to God to the degree they abuse His Word without fear. But, if we are not presumptuous or arrogant toward the sheep following them, we may be able to persuade many of these to rethink their views. Some believers who are not mature or instructed in scripture have been misled by these modern false prophets while thinking they are following the Lord and having the best of intentions. We should be careful not to malign every “liberal” as evil-hearted. Many just don’t know better.
Remember Christ’s words: “Forgive them Father for they know not what they do.” Paul said God had mercy on him because the evil he did was in ignorance and unbelief, thinking he was actually serving God by attacking Christians.
If I have an opportunity to get to know and discuss things with a liberal, my first concern is to find out where they stand with the gospel. If they claim to be a follower of Christ, politics can be discussed on the basis of a biblical perspective. If they are not a believer, that is the most important thing to address because getting them to vote Republican or even tea party conservative isn’t going to make them a Christian. Also, knowing Christ means that they will be on a journey to be corrected and instructed regarding how they live their lives and how they vote and participate in our government by the people.
” I take exception to the abuse of my Faith which is most often condemned by the Left, and misrepresented by some in the Liberal camp.”
Agreed. I just think it is important to distinguish between the leaders and followers in these categories. The leaders are generally people who have repeatedly heard the truth and hardened their hearts to it. The followers are often well-meaning people and are sometimes even genuine believers in Christ. If so, giving them the benefit of the doubt and making a case to them respectfully and humbly may persuade them they are being misled. They are being told conservatives are arrogant, judgmental, condemning, self-righteous hypocrites. We cannot afford to reinforce these views if we are to hope to change anyone’s mind.
The leftist leaders are wolves in sheep’s clothing. The point of killing a wolf is to rescue the sheep. Obama, Reid, Pelosi, along with leftist “Christian” leaders like Jesse Jackson, etc. deserve to be severely rebuked. Their followers need to be warned why they are in danger.
Yes, sadly your denomination has strayed far from its great heritage. The early Methodists leaders had a profound and helpful impact on the church as a whole, not just those in that denominations. Unfortunately they would hardly recognize what remains, much like much of modern Christendom and this nation as well.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.