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Gun laws do little in case of theater killings(WI)
jsonline.com ^ | 23 July, 2012 | Eugene Kane

Posted on 07/26/2012 8:48:13 AM PDT by marktwain

In the aftermath of the Colorado movie theater shootings, I'm not going to argue about concealed carry gun laws anymore.

We've been through all that here in Wisconsin.

Like many workplaces, the building where I work in this concealed carry state has a sign on the entrance informing folks that no weapons are allowed inside. Some gun advocates think that's part of the problem.

After all, folks like the orange-haired suspect in Aurora can read, too.

Concealed carry became a buzz phrase on my social message sites after some learned Colorado actually does have a concealed carry law that allows residents to exercise their Second Amendment right in a limited manner.

It's so limited the entire town of Aurora - along with other Colorado towns and cities with "gun-free zones" - doesn't permit anyone to carry a concealed weapon legally even though it's the law in other parts of the state.

That means the answer to one of the most asked questions after the Aurora shootings became a moot point: "Why didn't someone with a concealed weapon just take the guy out?"

The answer: They would have been breaking the law. (OK, I'll admit that does sound a bit wrongheaded.)

Proponents of concealed carry laws always use the example of random encounters with nefarious criminals as their main justification for why the public should be allowed to pack heat.

Given the bedlam in the Aurora theater - a tear gas cloud and a masked gunman with multiple weapons spraying bullets - it seems highly unlikely a regular citizen could have disrupted the killer's plot. My guess is the only ones who believe they actually could have stopped the guy are probably influenced by too much television or Hollywood.

(Excerpt) Read more at jsonline.com ...


TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Government; News/Current Events; US: Wisconsin
KEYWORDS: banglist; ccw; co; wi
Eugene Kane is growing on this issue. He used to be reliably and passionatly anti-gun. Now he cannot make the anti-gun arguments without giving the pro-defense side. He actually learned things during the CCW debate in Wisconsin. Notice how he mentions the need to not glorify the killer. I think he will completely come around to the Constitutional side over the next few years.
1 posted on 07/26/2012 8:48:21 AM PDT by marktwain
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To: marktwain

As far as I can see, the only solution for acts such as these, is concealed carry without a permit. No one can stop a determined person from obtaining a weapon. In Virginia, I can sell to anyone I want, without anyone having to know about it. If people did not know whether lots of people would shoot back or not, these incidents would become rare.

Virginia is an open-carry state, but lots of folks do not want to walk around with their weapons visible for any number of reasons. In that same vein, lots of folk don’t want to get into the data base that is concealed-carry permits or don’t want to go through the trouble of getting a permit.


2 posted on 07/26/2012 8:59:42 AM PDT by stuartcr ("When silence speaks, it speaks only to those that have already decided what they want to hear.")
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To: marktwain
FTA- " that allows residents to exercise their Second Amendment right in a limited manner."

We should be grateful that they allow Americans to exercise their rights?

Hey as*hat, you don't allow the exercise of a right; The right existed before there was law, before there was government. Government can only restrict the free exercise of rights.
3 posted on 07/26/2012 9:01:03 AM PDT by Macoozie (1) Win the Senate 2) Repeal Obamacare 3) Impeach Roberts)
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To: marktwain

If this is “growth”, I’d hate to see abject ignorance. Kane is wrong on the Aurora city ordinances. They have no authority or standing because the state has fully occupied that area of the law except for “Home Rule” cities, of which there is one, Denver. Denver has the authority to write some laws that are different than the state law but Aurora’s ordinances are just print on paper without power.


4 posted on 07/26/2012 9:02:58 AM PDT by T-Bird45 (It feels like the seventies, and it shouldn't.)
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To: marktwain

This is a losing issue for Obumer. Americans are not for more gun control not that this has stopped Zero from doing everything he does like passing an unpopular taxcare and pushing the gay marriage agenda.


5 posted on 07/26/2012 9:06:42 AM PDT by snarkytart (http://www.freerepubli224%2C1)
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To: marktwain

What people think when they see a “No Firearms” sign:

Average uninformed citizen: I’m safe!

Crazed killer/violent criminal: I’m VERY safe!


6 posted on 07/26/2012 9:09:24 AM PDT by WileyC
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To: marktwain
Given the bedlam in the Aurora theater - a tear gas cloud and a masked gunman with multiple weapons spraying bullets - it seems highly unlikely a regular citizen could have disrupted the killer's plot. My guess is the only ones who believe they actually could have stopped the guy are probably influenced by too much television or Hollywood.

Nobody knows for certain if a CCW holder would have ended the carnage sooner. It's likely that they could have. The POINT is: There wasn't any one available.

7 posted on 07/26/2012 9:35:19 AM PDT by BitWielder1 (Corporate Profits are better than Government Waste)
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To: marktwain
My guess is the only ones who believe they actually could have stopped the guy are probably influenced by too much television or Hollywood.

Quite guessing numb nut. Any human being has the right to at the very least go down fighting.

If ten to twenty of those patrons had been armed, some people would still have died. One of them would have been the perp.

That's enough for me to trust in my fellow man. Concealed carry will work if the pussies would just get out of the fricken way.

8 posted on 07/26/2012 9:37:38 AM PDT by DoughtyOne (Remove all Democrats from the Republican party, and we won't have much Left, just a lot of Right.)
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To: BitWielder1

Had I been there, I certainly would have liked to have someone carrying in that theater, but I would really have wanted him on the other side of the theater than me and my family.


9 posted on 07/26/2012 9:42:23 AM PDT by stuartcr ("When silence speaks, it speaks only to those that have already decided what they want to hear.")
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To: marktwain

Actually stupid gun laws do plenty ... they make defenseless
targets out of law abiding citizens.


10 posted on 07/26/2012 9:46:59 AM PDT by clamper1797 (I mourn for the America I grew up in ..fought for ..and loved ..July 4 1776- June 28 2012)
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To: marktwain
it seems highly unlikely a regular citizen could have disrupted the killer's plot

In other words, it's not even worth trying to defend yourself or your loved ones. Thanks, guy.

11 posted on 07/26/2012 10:04:46 AM PDT by wideawake
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To: stuartcr
Had I been there, I certainly would have liked to have someone carrying in that theater, but I would really have wanted him on the other side of the theater than me and my family.

Why, the CCW holder would not have been aiming at you.
Or are you worrying about the lunatic shooting in your direction because of the CCW holder?
He'll get to you eventually, unless someone takes him down first, no matter where from.
What would you prefer?
The CCW holder is not a threat to you, except maybe for ringing ears afterwards. As opposed to dead. I know what I would choose.

12 posted on 07/26/2012 10:08:14 AM PDT by BitWielder1 (Corporate Profits are better than Government Waste)
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To: marktwain
Given the bedlam in the Aurora theater - a tear gas cloud and a masked gunman with multiple weapons spraying bullets - it seems highly unlikely a regular citizen could have disrupted the killer's plot. My guess is the only ones who believe they actually could have stopped the guy are probably influenced by too much television or Hollywood.

No. Those of us with training understand what is possible and what is not.

The shooter can only operate one gun at a time. Weapons do not "spray" bullets. Regular citizens can do remarkable things.

The muzzle flash of the AR15 in the darkened theater would reveal the bad guy's position. The good guy should shoot at this flash when the opportunity arises and move obliquely closing the distance. Other tactical opportunities may present themselves. Have a plan. When and if that plans goes to hell, create a another plan. If one gives up, he may die (or allow others to die).

13 posted on 07/26/2012 10:16:21 AM PDT by nonsporting
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To: BitWielder1

I would prefer not to be anywhere near either of them.

The good guy isn’t a threat, but he would probably draw fire and I would prefer to be as far away from that as possible. Of course this is all guessing, as I wasn’t there, don’t know where I would have been sitting or where a potential good guy with a weapon would be. He wouldn’t necessarily get to me eventually, as he didn’t get to everyone during the real thing either.


14 posted on 07/26/2012 10:29:10 AM PDT by stuartcr ("When silence speaks, it speaks only to those that have already decided what they want to hear.")
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To: marktwain

The author is missing a major point. In addition to being charged with 12 counts of murder, 50 or so counts of assault with a deadly weapon and attempted murder, explosives and weapons of mass destruction offenses, these gun laws allow Colorado to also charge the killer with firearms violations. They may even get him with trespass for bringing weapons onto private property in a designated “gun free zone”. I imagine the killer is far more scared with those additional charges than he would be with just the more traditional felonies.


15 posted on 07/26/2012 10:41:38 AM PDT by Pollster1 (Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction. - Ronald Reagan)
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To: stuartcr
I would prefer not to be anywhere near either of them.

I would prefer not to be there at all.
Wait, I wasn't.
We can armchair speculate all we want what the best "strategy" would be in an unexpected situation.
I firmly believe that if I ever was in that situation, I'd be safer, on average, with one or more good people shooting back at the gunman.
If you don't share that belief, if you think that one or more defenders would actually increase the dangers to you, I can only say I disagree.
There are if course no guarantees. We could be killed, or not, in either of hundreds of possible scenarios.

Maybe we should run this through the simulator in a "Deadliest Warrior" episode - Crazed Gunman versus CCW Holder.

16 posted on 07/26/2012 10:56:11 AM PDT by BitWielder1 (Corporate Profits are better than Government Waste)
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To: marktwain

This is ridiculous. We need to go after the core problem...

Let’s have more laws against MURDER!


17 posted on 07/26/2012 10:56:44 AM PDT by bolobaby
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To: marktwain
Photobucket
18 posted on 07/26/2012 10:57:30 AM PDT by CodeToad (History says our end is near.)
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To: marktwain
Like many workplaces, the building where I work in this concealed carry state has a sign on the entrance informing folks that no weapons are allowed inside.

A sign on a business does not necessarily carry the force of law. In my state, guns are prohibited in certain specific places, like courthouses, schools and bars. Some businesses like shopping malls may post a sign saying "no guns allowed" but those signs are a request of the management not a law enforceable by the police. If someone was observed with a gun the management could ask them to leave, and that's about it. If they refused to leave then they would be trespassing, which is enforceable, but if they left then no law was broken.

19 posted on 07/26/2012 11:35:36 AM PDT by Ramius (Personally, I give us one chance in three. More tea anyone?)
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To: BitWielder1

OK, we disagree.

It would be hard to simulate. I don’t see how they could program the complete surprise and unknown persons reaction aspect of it.


20 posted on 07/26/2012 1:18:57 PM PDT by stuartcr ("When silence speaks, it speaks only to those that have already decided what they want to hear.")
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To: nonsporting
The muzzle flash of the AR15 in the darkened theater would reveal the bad guy's position.

Exactly, and several citizens hitting his spineless, chickensh!t a$$ would probably have made him crap his britches and start crying.

Lives could have been saved. I'll never believe otherwise.

21 posted on 07/26/2012 1:24:04 PM PDT by houeto (https://secure.freerepublic.com/donate/)
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To: stuartcr
Hard but not impossible. It would be right up their alley.

22 posted on 07/26/2012 2:20:39 PM PDT by BitWielder1 (Corporate Profits are better than Government Waste)
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To: marktwain; Hunton Peck; Diana in Wisconsin; P from Sheb; Shady; DonkeyBonker; Wisconsinlady; JPG; ..

Wisconsin concealed carry ping

FReep Mail me if you want on, or off, this Wisconsin interest ping list.


23 posted on 07/27/2012 11:12:59 AM PDT by afraidfortherepublic (ABO)
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