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Natural Gas for Cars (The key to ending OPEC’s control over the U.S. transportation industry)
National Review ^ | 08/26/2012 | T. Boone Pickens & R. James Woolsey

Posted on 08/27/2012 4:21:30 AM PDT by SeekAndFind

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To: Beagle8U

That is a great idea. I heat with fuel oil at my current home. My contract for this winter heating season is $3.49/gallon. This equalts to about $2800 to heat my 2400 sq. ft house.

However, NG requires a pipeline to be bulit in front of my house in its current form. This will not happen anytime soon. They are more likely to build a pipeline to a new subdivison because they will then get 100% of the houses as new customers. If they build a pipeline along my road, they may only get 50% of the houses to connect. Therefore, unless NG can be liquified , so that it can be tranported by tanker truck and then stored in a tank on my property, it will not be a potential fuel for people like me anytime soon.

So I am stick with oil and the wood stove. That is why pellet stoves are good sellers around here. They are about a 5-6 year payoff. They have drawbacks too. Such as , where do you store the the 4-5 pallets of pellets in a dry place that you will need this winter. They are also noisy and need electricity to operate.

Coal is actually making a comeback because it is even cheaper than NG. I looked at a new hot water boiler/furnace at last winters homeshow. It was a duel fuel unit. It burned anthracite pellitized washed coal or heating oil. It had a hooper that could hold about 3-4 days of coal. With the flick of a switch you could change it over to fuel oil. The sales point was you could store the coal outside. It is a mineral. It doesn’t matter if it gets wet. It is actually wet in the bag to reduce the dust.

Obviously, I have been contemplating all these alternative methods of home heating ever since the spike in heating oil prices in the last 10 years. I have already added as much insulation, new doors and windows, etc. to make my house as efficint as possible. The crazy thing is that heating oil used to always run about a $1/gallon less than gasoline. Keep in mind there is no state or federal tax of $.40-.70/gallon on heating oil like there is on gasoline or diesel. In the last 5 years it has been has been the same price as unleaded gas or higher in the winter. The other fact is it costs a lot less to make heating oil. It is junk. It is basically like kerosine. It should be lot less.


61 posted on 08/27/2012 7:04:59 AM PDT by woodbutcher1963
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To: SUSSA

Correct, DRILL BABY,DRILL for oil that is..


62 posted on 08/27/2012 7:07:29 AM PDT by rxtn41
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To: Beagle8U

Sorry for all the spelling errors. I should have checked before I posted.


63 posted on 08/27/2012 7:09:26 AM PDT by woodbutcher1963
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To: woodbutcher1963
“However, NG requires a pipeline to be bulit in front of my house in its current form. This will not happen anytime soon.”

No pipeline required for LPG (propane) it is delivered by truck just like your fuel oil. Burns as clean as NG, and is in fact made from waste products of NG and gasoline refining.

Current retail price in my area is $1.60 a gal.

IMO, fuel oil for home heating is an insane option.

64 posted on 08/27/2012 7:19:12 AM PDT by Beagle8U (Free Republic -- One stop shopping ....... It's the Conservative Super WalMart for news .)
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To: Beagle8U
and is in fact made from waste products of NG and gasoline refining

Co-products, not considered waste at $55~60/barrel for the wholesale price and $120/barrel for the final sale price.

http://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/pet_pri_wfr_a_EPLLPA_PWR_dpgal_m.htm

http://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/pet_pri_wfr_a_EPLLPA_PRS_dpgal_m.htm

Some wells are being drilled for natural gas liquids like propane, butane and consider the Natural Gas as a side product.

65 posted on 08/27/2012 7:30:57 AM PDT by thackney (life is fragile, handle with prayer)
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To: Beagle8U

I agree. At a 50:1 price differential, it seems like a quick payoff in increasing the NG distribution infrastructure. It is likely that a case could be made at 6:1. From stats I’ve seen, between 8 and 9 million homes use over 5 billion gallons of fuel oil per year. About 80% of the homes using fuel oil are in the northeast which is a small area when compared to the entire US. This would free up a lot of fuel for transport.


66 posted on 08/27/2012 7:37:19 AM PDT by Patron92
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To: Beagle8U

Agreed, oil is an insane option now. However, in 1972 when my house was built it was by far the cheapest. There were a lot of houses built in NH in the mid 1970’s that had electic baseboard heat. Most of those houses were converted to oil or propane in the 1980s or 90s. When I bought this house 15 years ago, oil was still the cheapest. It has only been the last 5-6 years that it has gone to a premium of propane.

When(not if)I replace my current furnace, I most likey will convert to propane.


67 posted on 08/27/2012 7:37:26 AM PDT by woodbutcher1963
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To: thackney
OK, co-product then, it is still cleaner and cheaper than fuel oil, and requires no pipeline to your home.

Buy your own tank and you can shop around for the cheapest price, rather than being tied to one company and tank rental and bloated prices.

68 posted on 08/27/2012 7:45:06 AM PDT by Beagle8U (Free Republic -- One stop shopping ....... It's the Conservative Super WalMart for news .)
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To: woodbutcher1963
If there are any large grain,( corn, wheat, soybean ) farms in the area they likely use propane in their dryers.

If you can buy a used 1000 gal tank you can sometimes get your gas wholesale.

Used tanks are easy to find and quite cheap. You will more than save the price of the tank in lower fuel price the first year.

69 posted on 08/27/2012 7:59:08 AM PDT by Beagle8U (Free Republic -- One stop shopping ....... It's the Conservative Super WalMart for news .)
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To: SeekAndFind

Natural Gas, and propane, only make sense in large displacement engines operating in stop and go city driving. The savings evaporate when cruising down a highway


70 posted on 08/27/2012 8:04:22 AM PDT by Steven Tyler
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To: Spktyr
If we convert to pure natural gas, we’ll be right back where we are now at some point in the future.

We can keep on using oil as well as CNG, and we no more be relying on a single source of fuel than houses in the northeast that have both oil and natural gas furnaces.
71 posted on 08/27/2012 8:04:22 AM PDT by Dr. Sivana ("I love to watch you talk talk talk, but I hate what I hear you say."-Del Shannon)
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To: SeekAndFind

My wife worked for a utility that had NG flex vehicles. She drove one all day, every day. They were Dakota pick ups, because they needed somewhere to put the huge NG tank. We have a huge hill, (3 miles?), in our town and she would have to switch over to gasoline to go up it. The vehicle had no power on NG. Also it had no range. I forget those details, but you had to keep switching back to gasoline when you ran out of NG.

They have since gotten rid of all those vehicles. The fueling station gathers dust. EPIC FAIL!


72 posted on 08/27/2012 8:05:20 AM PDT by faucetman ( Just the facts, ma'am, Just the facts)
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To: Beagle8U
cheaper than fuel oil

Actually, it is not. It is significantly cheaper per gallon, but fuel oil has ~60% more BTU’s per gallon. Assuming similar efficiencies in the burners:

$2.868 Propane at 71,000 BTU/gallon is 4.0¢ per thousand BTU.

$4.104 Fuel Oil at 115,000 BTU/gallon is 3.6¢ per thousand BTU.

Just like ethanol to gasoline, not all fuels are created equal. Propane is relatively expensive fuel, especially compared to natural gas.

Fuel Oil Price http://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/pet_pri_wfr_a_EPD2F_PRS_dpgal_m.htm

Propane Price
http://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/pet_pri_wfr_a_EPLLPA_PRS_dpgal_m.htm

At the same time period (March 2012), Residential Natural Gas averaged $10.36 per 1,000 cu ft which equates to 1.0¢ per 1,000 BTU.

http://www.eia.gov/dnav/ng/ng_pri_sum_dcu_nus_m.htm

73 posted on 08/27/2012 8:15:30 AM PDT by thackney (life is fragile, handle with prayer)
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To: thackney
“$2.868 Propane at 71,000 BTU/gallon is 4.0¢ per thousand BTU.”

Except for the fact that I pay $1.60, not the $2.86 you use to figure costs.

74 posted on 08/27/2012 8:26:49 AM PDT by Beagle8U (Free Republic -- One stop shopping ....... It's the Conservative Super WalMart for news .)
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To: SeekAndFind

Natural gas has been used in cars for years.One can still obtain conversion kits.
I remember cars in the 50’s having them.


75 posted on 08/27/2012 8:29:58 AM PDT by Vaduz
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To: Beagle8U

I used the national average. There is plenty of variation in the price. At that same time period, the Central East coast was $3.50 a gallon.


76 posted on 08/27/2012 8:30:44 AM PDT by thackney (life is fragile, handle with prayer)
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To: Graewoulf

I have never heard him advocate that taxpayers pay for the transition. It seems likely that the transitional savings will be adequate to justify the costs involved in the change.

The market profitability will permit the infrastructure requirements to be developed.


77 posted on 08/27/2012 8:49:31 AM PDT by bert ((K.E. N.P. N.C. +12 ..... Present failure and impending death yield irrational action))
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To: bert

Pickens, Koch spar over natural gas subsidies
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/2chambers/post/pickens-koch-spar-over-natural-gas-subsidies/2011/05/20/AFVjez7G_blog.html

The T. Boone Pickens Earmark Bill (Ron Paul Co-Sponsors Taxpayer Boondoggle)
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2719999/posts

T. Boone Pickens has a federal subsidy beef with the Koch brothers over natural gas, ethanol
http://green.autoblog.com/2011/11/25/t-boone-pickens-federal-subsidy-koch-brothers-cng-ethanol/


78 posted on 08/27/2012 9:06:44 AM PDT by thackney (life is fragile, handle with prayer)
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To: thackney
I know the prices vary wildly at the retail level, even in my area of MI.

My current supplier said the true wholesale to the distributors is about .70-.80 cents a gal.

I didn't look up the NYSE traded price, but I think the current traded price is less than last years and that was in the .70 cent range.

79 posted on 08/27/2012 9:30:03 AM PDT by Beagle8U (Free Republic -- One stop shopping ....... It's the Conservative Super WalMart for news .)
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To: Qwackertoo; jaydubya2
Until someone invests in the infrastructure and car mfgs. make them more available...

The infrastructure is coming. But the industry does not want the gov't to get invovled.

So, the primary focus is first on fleet users, municipal vehicles (garbage trucks, buses, etc) and truck lines.

Once they have refilling stations, it will spread from there to truck stops and along interstates.

Eventually, like diesel, it will be available at nearly every station.

Trust in the market to make it happen right.

80 posted on 08/27/2012 9:37:49 AM PDT by Erik Latranyi (When religions have to beg the gov't for a waiver, we are already under socialism.)
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