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George Will | Conservative voters, are you bluffing or for real?
The Kansas City Star ^ | August 29, 2012 | George Will, The Washington Post

Posted on 08/29/2012 11:42:55 PM PDT by 2ndDivisionVet

WASHINGTON -- Now begins the final phase of this cognitive dissonance campaign. America’s 57th presidential election is the first devoted to calling the nation’s bluff. When Mitt Romney selected Paul Ryan, Republicans undertook the perilous but commendable project of forcing voters to face that they hold flatly incompatible beliefs.

Twice as many Americans identify themselves as conservative as liberal. Nov. 6 we will know if they mean it. This is the problem for uneasy Republicans. The Democrats’ problem is worse because they are not uneasy about their dissonance, being blissfully unaware of it.

In “Spoiled Rotten: How the Politics of Patronage Corrupted the Once Noble Democratic Party and Now Threatens the American Republic,” Jay Cost of The Weekly Standard says the party has succumbed to “clientelism,” the process of purchasing cohorts of voters with federal favors. This has turned the party into the servant of the strong.

Before Franklin Roosevelt, “liberal” described policies emphasizing liberty and individual rights. He pioneered the politics of collective rights — of group entitlements. And his liberalism developed policies not just to buy the allegiance of existing groups but to create groups that would be dependent on government...

(Excerpt) Read more at kansascity.com ...


TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Editorial; Extended News; Philosophy; Politics/Elections
KEYWORDS: conservatives; obama; romney; ryan
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What say you?
1 posted on 08/29/2012 11:43:10 PM PDT by 2ndDivisionVet
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

George Will is full of self importance, that’s what I say.


2 posted on 08/29/2012 11:56:30 PM PDT by svcw (If one living cell on another planet is life, why isn't it life in the womb?)
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To: svcw

You didn’t read the whole article, did you?


3 posted on 08/30/2012 12:04:45 AM PDT by SatinDoll (NATURAL BORN CITZEN: BORN IN THE USA OF CITIZEN PARENTS.)
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To: SatinDoll

Nope.
Don’t need to, to know that George Will is full of self importance.
Thought that was the question you asked.


4 posted on 08/30/2012 12:07:54 AM PDT by svcw (If one living cell on another planet is life, why isn't it life in the womb?)
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To: svcw
ad hominem: changing the discussion from the ideas presented, to the man presenting them.

So, what about Will's ideas?
5 posted on 08/30/2012 12:12:05 AM PDT by jobim (.)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

There’s no doubt conservatives are energized. The Rats have managed to get us even more motivated than in 2010. But we’re still not an absolute majority - we need a fair number of independents to buy into our message.


6 posted on 08/30/2012 12:16:32 AM PDT by aquila48
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To: 2ndDivisionVet
I don't get it. Is George Will actually pretending that Mitt is conservative or is that the bluff he is asking about?

I'm just so tried of this pretense that suddenly conservative doesn't include traditional values.

Just stop bothering me. Mitt? Never!

7 posted on 08/30/2012 12:17:43 AM PDT by donna (This is what happens when America is no longer a Christian nation.)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

Good article. Thanks for posting.


8 posted on 08/30/2012 12:19:11 AM PDT by 1035rep (Obama: "I killed Bin Laden" ...you didn't do that. Somebody else made that happen.)
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To: jobim
Why not tell us what you think? (like that's really important or something).

I'll [badly] start us off;
It won't matter one whit if I myself call any bluff, or don't. I'm hopelessly surrounded by Dem voters in a winner-take-all state. It wouldn't matter if I could vote a thousand times, it would still result as if I didn't vote at all, in the end. ALL the electoral votes will end up going to Obama. Unless someone out there really thinks Romney is going to carry California.

If I lived in Florida I would have to consider looking at things more ABO.

So just what is this bluff Will was prattling about? The type that vote Dem but think they are "conservative?"? Like they are going to notice? Will covered that. They won't.

This convention won't convince many or change many minds. Is the bluff really too many will just tell Rino Romney to take a hike?

9 posted on 08/30/2012 12:30:22 AM PDT by BlueDragon (going to change my name to "Nobody" then run for elective office)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

Good article by George... wish he would use a clearer term than “rent-seeker”. That makes it sound like someone renting out an apartment or house is bad. I can think of a much more lucid replacement term - “favor-seeker”.


10 posted on 08/30/2012 12:31:07 AM PDT by aquila48
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

Will long ago became an insufferable, condescending a-hole who has convinced himself he’s the only intelligent creature on the planet. He believes humans are incapable of acting from altruistic motives. No matter our beliefs, we simply are stupid sheep following the command of our masters. Jerk-off.


11 posted on 08/30/2012 12:32:03 AM PDT by twister881
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To: twister881

Next time, let me know how you really feel.


12 posted on 08/30/2012 12:35:14 AM PDT by 2ndDivisionVet (You cannot invade the mainland United States. There would be a rifle behind every blade of grass.)
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To: BlueDragon

Could be the GOP-e are worried about no convention bounce. Especially after the no Ryan bounce. That is what’s really at stake.


13 posted on 08/30/2012 12:39:27 AM PDT by Berlin_Freeper (I used to want to change the world. Now, I want to stop the world from changing me.)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet
Walter Mondale, conceding to Ronald Reagan after the 1984 election, listed the groups he thought government should assist: “the poor, the unemployed, the elderly, the handicapped, the helpless and the sad.” Yes, the sad.

Looking forward to his upcoming appearance drooling in Charlotte.

14 posted on 08/30/2012 12:45:38 AM PDT by cynwoody
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To: Berlin_Freeper

I’m still not at all sure Romney can pull off a win. All the alphabet network talking heads just loved the guy (compared to any other GOP primary candidate). That should have been our first clue.


15 posted on 08/30/2012 12:45:46 AM PDT by BlueDragon (going to change my name to "Nobody" then run for elective office)
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To: BlueDragon

I don’t really know either. Soon we will see the convention polls.

Romney might win as long as I don’t support him. My support is the Kiss of Death. :(


16 posted on 08/30/2012 12:58:06 AM PDT by Berlin_Freeper (I used to want to change the world. Now, I want to stop the world from changing me.)
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To: BlueDragon
Why not tell us what you think? (like that's really important or something).

Does that insult refer to me? But I was responding to svcw.

I'd be happy to comment on your interpretation of Will, but I guess I'd first like to know if you have insulted me. Now, I don't mind a good insult, and have often deserved them. But I like to get them the old-fashioned way: by earning them. Or have I misread you?
17 posted on 08/30/2012 1:04:02 AM PDT by jobim (.)
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To: Berlin_Freeper

Don’t believe everything you read in the funny papers.


18 posted on 08/30/2012 1:04:32 AM PDT by 2ndDivisionVet (You cannot invade the mainland United States. There would be a rifle behind every blade of grass.)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet
I work with a bunch of people who claim to be conservative but really are a bunch of jealous populists who love Obama’s class warfare. They genuinely believe the media's portrayal of Sarah Palin. They like shooting and hunting but still support the gun grabbing usurper.
19 posted on 08/30/2012 1:06:49 AM PDT by fireman15 (Check your facts before making ignorant statements.)
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To: aquila48

To those who keep up on the charade that is the field of economics, the term “rent seeker” or “rent seeking” is a pretty well known one since WWII:

http://www.econlib.org/library/Enc/RentSeeking.html

I share your wish that the term were more clear for the average person who doesn’t spend their time reading adult fairy tales like economics papers.


20 posted on 08/30/2012 1:14:21 AM PDT by NVDave
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To: 2ndDivisionVet
What say you?

I say George is stating the obvious with words the opposition is not capable of understanding.

Preaching to the choir.

21 posted on 08/30/2012 1:32:52 AM PDT by publius911 (Formerly Publius 6961, formerly jennsdad)
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I say keep the elite in the dark.


22 posted on 08/30/2012 1:38:58 AM PDT by Gene Eric (Demoralization is a weapon of the enemy. Don't get it, don't spread it!)
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To: jobim

Why not comment on Will's article? Didn't you open with taking another to task for not doing so? Nobody is holding you back, except yourself. If you think yourself insulted, consider your own lack of doing yourself that which you required of another.

23 posted on 08/30/2012 1:52:24 AM PDT by BlueDragon (going to change my name to "Nobody" then run for elective office)
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To: aquila48
I can think of a much more lucid replacement term - “favor-seeker”.

I sure hope not. Speaking to the least common denominator simply lowers the bar.

Rent Seeking has been a classic term as old as the Republic. I refuse to let the ignorant define my language.

If the Dimocraps and Obama's people can't understand it who cares?

24 posted on 08/30/2012 2:02:25 AM PDT by publius911 (Formerly Publius 6961, formerly jennsdad)
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To: BlueDragon
It wouldn't matter if I could vote a thousand times, it would still result as if I didn't vote at all, in the end. ALL the electoral votes will end up going to Obama. Unless someone out there really thinks Romney is going to carry California.

Here is the flaw in your argument. Once CA was a Red State, now it is a Blue State. If everyone had your attitude of hopelessness believing there is no point in getting out to vote because "my vote won't matter", nothing would ever change. No State would ever change blue to red or vice versa.

If you and another million or 2 like you have this same hopeless attitude we are allowing the Left to beat us down, giving up because it's seemingly hopeless. This is precisely what they try to do every election because they never win on the issues except by trying to inflame their base to turn out while simultaneously depressing the oppositions will to do the same.

Consider this. Say Ca was won by Obama by 15 points in 2008 (I'm guessing) and people like yourself who want BADLY to get rid of him and are fired up do go to the polls, all of them even though they may think it makes no difference. Maybe you will come up short again but perhaps by just 3-4 points this time. You know how people love to follow trends and this sort of thing would cause people to re examine their views and cause tremendous angst on the Left.

If the Dems ever lost CA they would not win a presidential election, ever. Make it happen by voting and talking to as many people as you can who may believe as you do that it doesn't make any difference. It does make a difference.

25 posted on 08/30/2012 2:21:36 AM PDT by beenaround
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To: SatinDoll

I read it. It was good, for him. But, somehow, I think though it is his realization of just how momentous this election in November is. It is the last free election where actual conservatism has a chance to do something to stem the tide of the ever-increasing throngs of “rent-seekers” - the Depression Era equivalent of today’s entitlement leeches.

However, Mr. Will has been a card carrying member of the elitist Washington ‘so-called conservative’ corps for about as long as I can remember. His millieu is professional and social discourse with liberals and that tiny band of token ‘so-called conservatives’ that share the rare air in DC and other liberal environs they frequent.

I think he realizes that the potential exists that he will become irrelevant - unnecessary, because if we lose this election, there is no need for his tokenism.

I, for one, don’t really need to hear or read anything he thinks. He’s as outdated and elitist in his ideas on conservativism as is his classic bow tie.

Frankly, he knows what he’s been these last few years, and coming back into the conservative fold (or appear to), to become relevant again, is his aim. I’ll stick with the conservatives that know the real America - the ones that actually live in it.


26 posted on 08/30/2012 2:41:33 AM PDT by Gaffer
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To: BlueDragon
I'm hopelessly surrounded by Dem voters in a winner-take-all state. It wouldn't matter if I could vote a thousand times, it would still result as if I didn't vote at all, in the end.

I can understand and sympathize with you but think about at least this one thing: Electoral votes will likely go as you say, for your state. However, in recent elections much ado (about nothing) has been made re: popular vote. Whether there is merit to the argument or not is not the question. Liberals and Democrats will always use the Popular vs. Electoral argument, particularly if the two are in opposition. They use the tally to their advantage wherever they can and there is no value in giving them a win in Popular voting, too. So, in my mind, even a sure Electoral loss shouldn't be compounded by 'not voting' by the losing side and driving their Popular vote tally even higher. .

27 posted on 08/30/2012 2:48:42 AM PDT by Gaffer
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To: BlueDragon
All the alphabet network talking heads just loved the guy (compared to any other GOP primary candidate). That should have been our first clue.

Yes, probably - at least during primaries. But you can tell they are afraid of Ryan, and that is a very good thing.

28 posted on 08/30/2012 2:50:14 AM PDT by Gaffer
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To: donna

I think it’s because the broad interpretation of “liberal” has changed from resisting “the Man” to falling into step with him and over the edge of the cliff in a zombie like trance...lol


29 posted on 08/30/2012 3:04:08 AM PDT by jsanders2001
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To: Gaffer

I keep seeing people saying “this election is the last...” Where are they getting this? IMHO, the election they are referring to was, if anything, 4 years ago. We lost. We ain’t gonna get over it. The assumption that “this is the last” implies that something can be done to fix things. I certainly wish anyone who believes that would lay out their plan. Even Ryan and Romney can’t lay out a plan for a solution that will actually work. Ryan has “a plan” which is more than you can say for most but even that ignores the reality of the present. I keep hearing folks say “if we don’t blah, blah, blah Medicare or Social Security (or the gummint in general) will be broke in some seemingly obscure and only minimally uncomfortable distant date. WE ARE BROKE NOW! Medicare has been in the red since 2009. IIRC, they aren’t even collecting FICA anymore. Am I really the ONLY one paying attention in this country?


30 posted on 08/30/2012 3:22:17 AM PDT by wastoute (Government cannot redistribute wealth. Government can only redistribute poverty.)
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To: Gaffer

I don’t watch television; cannot afford cable any more, and besides, found most selections vapid. Most of my information now comes from the internet. So I read rather than listen and watch, and have trended towards not bothering to read people like George Will.

What he said about the political parties resonated with me. The Democrats have become the party who promises to provide “special” rights to groups like homosexuals, Hispanics, blacks, whoever. Vote for the Democratic Party and we will take care of you. This has included many banksters and particularly the Globalists supporting one world government through the UN.

This is exactly how the government was trending under Richard Nixon until the commies took him out for payback in outing communists in California during the early 1960s.

Reagan turned it back, but the Bush family thrust it forward again.

I want to see Washington changed. When a middle-class businessman goes to Congress, then a few years later returns home a millionaire, something is broken in our Capitol. Romney isn’t going to do it, Boehner supporting him is proof of that.

As for George Will, it matters not who wins this election. There really is no difference between Romney, a self-avowed Progressive and Reagan-hater, and BHO2 who is a communist.


31 posted on 08/30/2012 3:24:57 AM PDT by SatinDoll (NATURAL BORN CITZEN: BORN IN THE USA OF CITIZEN PARENTS.)
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To: SatinDoll; svcw

Romney also practices social/crony corporatism. That does not distinguish him from Obama. Will is being blind or being duplicitous. Take your pick.


32 posted on 08/30/2012 3:44:48 AM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain and Proud of It! True supporters of our troops pray for their victory!)
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To: Berlin_Freeper
My support is the Kiss of Death.

LOL! I know what you mean.

Pawlenty, Bachman, Santorum, Perry, Gingrich, Cain...

33 posted on 08/30/2012 4:07:52 AM PDT by Izzy Dunne (Hello, I'm a TAGLINE virus. Please help me spread by copying me into YOUR tag line.)
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To: cynwoody
Walter Mondale, conceding to Ronald Reagan after the 1984 election, listed the groups he thought government should assist: “the poor, the unemployed, the elderly, the handicapped, the helpless and the sad.” Yes, the sad.

Whaaaa! I thought I read a FR post just yesterday that Hubert Humphrey was accredited with this line of disillusionment with capitalism? Is it just an "Anvil Chorus" of mauls and sickles hammering at us from FDR to Soetero?

34 posted on 08/30/2012 4:42:56 AM PDT by imardmd1 (If at first you don't succeed, try again.)
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To: SatinDoll
I read it and will is still an overrated girlyman! Also, whenever the TEA Party is referred to as the “tea party”... Rest assured that the person writing the article is “not one of us”.

LLS

35 posted on 08/30/2012 5:27:56 AM PDT by LibLieSlayer (If romney is our only chance... we have less of a chance than a Massachusetts fetus.)
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To: wastoute; sickoflibs
WE ARE BROKE NOW! Medicare has been in the red since 2009. IIRC, they aren’t even collecting FICA anymore. Am I really the ONLY one paying attention in this country?

yep, all those pennies were spent long ago, and worthless paper is all thats in the trust fund...no FICA means 100% of those payouts are being made with borrowed money...

like using those citibank checks to pay the minimum on the discover card statement...

maybe the chicoms will offer us a low *introductory* rate on a new line of credit ???

the only *plan* that r&r are pushing...more of the same debt [death] spiral from DC...

36 posted on 08/30/2012 5:36:08 AM PDT by Gilbo_3 (Gov is not reason; not eloquent; its force.Like fire,a dangerous servant & master. George Washington)
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To: svcw

Did you read what he said? His position is dems buy votes of the dependent - and to keep those ranks high dems create dependency. Do you disagree with that?


37 posted on 08/30/2012 5:41:27 AM PDT by GOPJ (Homeland Paranoid Insecurity: Making the country safe for liberal elites...)
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To: svcw
Don't get caught in the trap of arguing like a liberal. Liberals never deal with ideas - just name calling and ad hominem attacks. Surely you don't want to be like a dem... Quick - wash yourself, shower, get the 'liberal' off you...
38 posted on 08/30/2012 5:46:15 AM PDT by GOPJ (Homeland Paranoid Insecurity: Making the country safe for liberal elites...)
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To: Gilbo_3; wastoute; ding_dong_daddy_from_dumas; stephenjohnbanker; DoughtyOne; NFHale; Impy; LMAO; ..
RE :”WE ARE BROKE NOW! Medicare has been in the red since 2009. IIRC, they aren’t even collecting FICA anymore. Am I really the ONLY one paying attention in this country?
........
yep, all those pennies were spent long ago, and worthless paper is all thats in the trust fund...no FICA means 100% of those payouts are being made with borrowed money

No, I been posting that truth for two years. The fake medicare IOUs allow Republicans to falsely claim that there is no limits on the $$$ the gubment can give those over 55, but the rest of us are out of luck. We will get a free cremation for all those Medicare taxes we paid and are paying now. That is it. But Ryan's mom?? She hit the lottery.

I felt sick when Christie (in his speech) said that Republicans are telling Seniors ‘the truth’. That was the biggest lie of the night. They are telling seniors that Republicans are their Santa.

But you know the ABBO chant : 'You can only beat lies with better sounding lies'

39 posted on 08/30/2012 5:48:37 AM PDT by sickoflibs (Romney is still a liberal. Just watch him. (Obama-ney Care ))
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

The basis of his argument is this: Paul Ryan is a conservative. By picking Ryan as VP, willard has taken some sort of risk. What that risk is, I have no idea. Anyway, what george wants us to believe is that this somehow gives the whole ticket the Magic, Invincible Cloak of Conservatism. And thus it’s time for the 2/3 of Americans who identify themselves as conservative to put up by voting for willard, or shut up.

Now that’s a fine argument if you accept the premise that the willard/Ryan ticket is actually conservative. Precisely one half is: the part that gets a vote in the senate on the off chance that there is a tie vote. The guy at the top of the ticket is about as conservative as bj clinton.

So what say me? I say that george will is deserving of Gold Star status in the Elite League of romney Apologists.


40 posted on 08/30/2012 6:10:31 AM PDT by RKBA Democrat (WILLARD 2012 - It's not just a campaign, it's a conservative suicide pact!)
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To: wastoute
I think you're fatalistically pessimistic, myself, but that's okay - I can see your point to a degree. Discounting the “who's got a plan, here a plan, anywhere a plan-plan” stuff, SS’s primary troubles are in the 25% outlays in SSDI and SSI, not having enough workers contributing, and allowing immigrants to bring their parents and grandparents here who've engineered eligibility for SS.

Millions of them now work the minimum quarters on the books of their son's/daughter's small businesses to qualify - and then go right back to getting paid under the table when they do qualify. You can see this easily in the waiting rooms of most any SS office.

We owe now what our entire GDP is for a year now (approximately). That's like owing a years salary in credit card debt. Ask Dave Ramsey about that kind of debt and he'll tell you what to do. Stop running trillion dollar deficits, stop fraud and abuse in SSI and SSDI, and cut entitlement programs and the agencies that oversee them and there is a way out of the hole; a hard one, but not impossible. Stop spending money on anything that isn't necessary (the equivalent of 'roof', 'food', and 'utilities').

The problem is principally of removing the leeches from America's teats and making them work. Stop incentivizing their poverty by giving them EITC, etc. Stop allowing immigrants from being a burden on the entitlements in the US.

Also, they still collect FICA it is 4.2% vs the 6.2% they used to. This was Obama’s way of putting money in the pockets of his few voters that still actually work for a paycheck

41 posted on 08/30/2012 7:52:16 AM PDT by Gaffer
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

The column was written to show how smart Will is.

Where is the clear simple discussion of CONSERVATIVE
principles?

NO to DEATH PANELS.
NO to OBAMACARE.
NO to TARP.
NO to TAXES.
NO to CZARS.
NO to NO accountability.


42 posted on 08/30/2012 8:25:09 AM PDT by Diogenesis (Vi veri veniversum vivus vici)
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To: Gaffer
So, in my mind, even a sure Electoral loss shouldn't be compounded by 'not voting' by the losing side and driving their Popular vote tally even higher.

I didn't say I was going to vote for Obama. His tally won't be any higher. But vote however best you can determine, yourself. I'm ok with that.

43 posted on 08/30/2012 8:39:30 AM PDT by BlueDragon (going to change my name to "Nobody" then run for elective office)
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To: beenaround
Here is the flaw in your argument.

Whatever. I was talking about THIS election, not some past, or some future.

The GOP has lost my support (generally). No more walking precincts talking to people door-to-door, for me.

They despise the Tea Party for fear it will upset their apple cart. They join with the worst of the Democrats in that.

I wonder how many GOP operatives there are around this place...every election cycle we see new sign ups telling us all about it.

Sorry charlie, I'm not going to dance to the tune of "fear". The sales pitch is falling flat this time around.

44 posted on 08/30/2012 8:41:58 AM PDT by BlueDragon (going to change my name to "Nobody" then run for elective office)
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To: BlueDragon
Good for you. I wonder how your “principled” self will feel if Obamugabe wins and your left standing in the ruins with just your “principles” to keep you all warm and cozy, not to mention fed and free (maybe)

Do you have a family/ How about grand kids? Do you ever consider THEM and what they will face down the road or is it always about you?

How about this? Romney sucks, OK? He was my f’n last choice and I'm sorry he even ran but he is ALL which is standing between us and what may be an irreversible disaster. You think not? Fine then you take the chance with the future of your entire family. Personally I am old enough and mature enough to accept a Primary candidate defeat and move on to the NEXT best thing to do which is stop the shi*thead in the WH at any cost.

It's about PRIORITIES, not you.

45 posted on 08/30/2012 8:54:57 AM PDT by beenaround
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To: beenaround
...And so come the personal insults and attack, with plentiful doses of fear mongering. I knew I could depend on you.

If Romney loses (which is quite possible) don't blame me, for there is no way my own vote can translate into electoral college vote in this election [as I have explained]. Blame the GOP, and Romney, but blame them perhaps, only after blaming the Democrat leaning populace primarily. I am none of those people, nor am I responsible for what they do.

But I see things are getting all geared up to blame myself, and those like me if Mitt fails to get elected. How can that sort of blame-game thing help in the long run?


beenaround Since Jul 17, 2012.

Vote for Willard if you wish. But don't come around here browbeating those whom don't care to. Unless that sort of thing is like, your job or something...

46 posted on 08/30/2012 9:22:39 AM PDT by BlueDragon (going to change my name to "Nobody" then run for elective office)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

>>>”Nov. 6 we will know if they mean it.”

This article reminded me of Eric Fromm’s “Escape From Freedom.”


47 posted on 08/30/2012 9:31:08 AM PDT by D-fendr (Deus non alligatur sacramentis sed nos alligamur.)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

The problem is, conservatives are holding a pair of 2’s.


48 posted on 08/30/2012 9:32:21 AM PDT by dfwgator (I'm voting for Ryan and that other guy.)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

Bump.

Great piece and necessary reading.


49 posted on 08/30/2012 9:56:57 AM PDT by mojito
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To: beenaround

“It’s about PRIORITIES, not you.”

How ‘bout this for a priority? Only supporting people who are actual conservatives. Because they’re the only people who you can count on to do conservative things. So sorry that willard isn’t one.

And while we’re at it, the fear mongering is getting really old. What’s the next evil that will befall us if we don’t jump on the willard wagon RFN? Plagues of boils? Mayan apocalypse? The heartbreak of psoriasis? Give it a rest. The histrionics aren’t winning you any converts at this point.


50 posted on 08/30/2012 10:07:43 AM PDT by RKBA Democrat (WILLARD 2012 - It's not just a campaign, it's a conservative suicide pact!)
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