American Bulldog is stabbed 23 times by irate pet owner after it had a fight with another dog

Daily Mail ^ | 12 October 2012 | Emily Allen

[dervish]

Let me clarify. I make no money from dog training. I train rescues as a volunteer. The video I made was to try to find a home for this beautiful dog and was not a training video. I did want to showcase her training achievements. The down at a distance was being taught, not the recall. This dog had already been placed in four homes unsuccessfully. She responded beautifully to the training and has been in her current home for two years.

If you have never trained for competition maybe you shouldn’t comment on Koehler’s Utility book.

I am happy for you that you enjoy your FR role as the ‘go to’ for training advice. Ironically, many of the techniques you describe, when not caught up in your Koehler vitriol, were developed by Koehler — never repeat a command, no off leash till bullet proof, drag line. Your response to Koehler seems Pavlovian. Not surprised. I used to train my own dog in a Manhattan park. The hostility I got from the fenced in dog run crowd was the same. My dog did a perfect recall out in the open, and they used their food behind the fence.

[SCalGal]

YMMV.

And it does, with age, with breed, with brains. I've worked with dogs that can think their way through multi-step problems and pleasing you was NOwhere on their agenda. Biddable? Not at all.

And I spent a good 20 years with Dobermans. Good dogs, biddable, easy to train, easy to retrain.

I can tell you that there's NO one size fits all method and you'll always learn something new.

[Salamander]

I trained rescue Dobes while living in downtown Hagerstown with no parks, fields or even a yard.

We worked in the old parking lot across from the Herald Mail newspaper building.

I was surrounded by nothing but city streets with cars zooming by, people cutting through the lot on their way to wherever, stray cats and dogs intruding, etc.

The dogs I re-homed were bulletproof in 30 days or less, even the ‘hard/hopeless’ ones.

Koehler’s ‘methods’ of no repeat commands, etc were followed up with -punishment- for not following the command.

I did not do that then and do not do that now.

That is the difference.

Strong-arming a dog is just stupid.

You may ‘break’ it if you fight it hard and long enough but you will never have its trust; only its fearful ‘respect’.

I do not like broken dogs.

I may not train for competition but I certainly wouldn’t put *that* video up for public scrutiny, if I did.

I was just chatting with a long-time ‘big name’ in conformation/obedience and she was horrified and genuinely shocked to find that Koehler is still being used.

Most of us fled from his sadism in the 70’s.

If you consider that reaction “Pavlovian”, so be it.

Everybody can read the entire book from the link posted above and draw their own conclusions.

[Salamander]

And that’s why I use many different ‘methods’, each one chosen for the particular dog or breed I’m working with at any time.

What works for Dobes and Pits is totally useless for Sight Hounds.

[actually, just about everything is useless for Sight Hounds]..LOL

I’ve had Dobes for 38 years now and I’ve never had one that took more than a month to ‘fix’, no matter how horrendous their life had been before I got hold of them.

And actually, Merlin was the only dog who took a month, due her multiple severe physical and mental abuses.
[she was one that I kept because she was so traumatized that she only trusted and obeyed me..it was a sin, the things done to her]

She was one of my best dogs ever but I didn’t trust that anyone else would understand her particular emotional scars.

The other couple dozen usually were go good to go in 2 weeks, give or take.

You ever work with Euro Dobes?

“Biddable” is not really in their vocabulary...but ‘driven’ certainly is.

So their training has to be modified to fit that drive.

I will say that they learn much faster than American Dobes which is not necessarily a good thing.

They learn to ‘anticipate the command’ so fast it’s scary..and frustrating at times.

But even that has its upside.

Odin is so attuned to my subtle hand signals [taught at the same time as his voice commands were] that people who watch him ‘do his thing’ in public think he’s ‘reading my mind’.

Of course, he’s not.

He’s just watching for the tiny, almost imperceptible shifts in the positions of my seemingly still fingers to do what he’s supposed to.

Little kids love it.

They think he’s “magic”.

:)

[SCalGal]

You ever work with Euro Dobes?

Prefer them. Much more solid dogs, more able to work. My first all-my-own was a German bred Dobe, a big red male. I like big working dogs that can work. Some of them come in here so messed up it takes as long as a year to put them back together. I don't take the quick turn arounds.

Ever worked with completely feral dogs? Born in the wild, never been around people at all types? Those are interesting.

[Salamander]

One semi-feral.

My Portuguese Podengo Medio had been dumped as a pup in the high country of CA by Portuguese hunters along with her sister and then transported to no-kill shelter in SOCAL.

Until she was grabbed, she’d been living on her own in the desert.

Being a Sight Hound, she was totally self sufficient and really didn’t need ‘saving’ except from coyotes.

As it is, now, she’s my go-to dog for socialization.

She’s got a gift for making other dogs feel at ease.

Her sister went to a shelter volunteer friend of mine but the two dogs couldn’t be more worlds apart in personality.

Her dogs are crated during the day and she ‘interferes’ with ‘hierarchical squabbles’.

I don’t.

Somehow, she’s worked her way up to being the boss of the 100 lb Euro Dobe.

Go figure.

;D

I fully agree about working dogs.

The elegant things in the show rings are of no interest to me.

What use is an overdone ‘swan like neck’ if the dog has to defend you?

And four “allowable missing teeth”.

WTH?

[5th MEB]

Nah; that’s not a big dog, my Honey-Bunny weighs 153 and she is just my little girl puppy dog.
English Mastiffs are big but pretty gentle, she thinks she is a lap dog. All 4 of my boys and girls are pound puppies and they love their daddy.

[Bon of Babble]

Your post about the Koehler method made me absolutely cringe. Suspending a dog in mid-air?? I once saw a woman do this in a park — to a young Westie. I wanted to SCREAM. Later, the dog sitter I use also sat this same Westie and said he had a partially collapsed trachea and had a LOTof problems stemming from that.

I was fortunate to go to a wonderful dog training class that worked on dog obedience without treats or punishment, but praise and positive reinforcement. I never thought it would work on my VERY stubborn, strong-willed Shih-Tzu but it DID and worked wonders. I was amazed at the transformation and my dog LOVED it. He would give his little life to protect me and my house, he’s a wonderful sentry dog (the rescue police dog/pit bull mix is the guard dog — one look and people cross the street!!).

Thanks for posting.

[Salamander]

Sometimes practicality leads us to a better way.

This thing weighs just 6 pounds less than I do and is as tall as I am, standing on his hind legs.

What do you suppose would happen to me if I were to treat him so brutally and mindlessly?

And would I deserve whatever happened?

Definitely.

There is no excuse for abuse, ever.

If you can't out-think your dog and gain control over it with superior intellect, you probably shouldn't have a dog.

FWIW, the trainers at DogTown rehabbed and re-homed _all but one_ of Vicks' fighting dogs without using any violence whatsoever.

[then again, that's how they rehab all the "hopeless" dogs they receive every year]

A dog will not respect someone it doesn't trust and no dog trusts an owner who hurts it.

Begrudging obedience, borne of fear is not the way.

I'm sorry for the poor Westie [how unforgivable] but happy that your dog is everything he can be, thanks to you.

That he would give his life ~for~ you is a testament that he responded to the positive reinforcement he got ~from~ you.

The big galoot up there ^ has never known a hit or jerk in his life but I will wager my life [literally] that if someone were to hit or jerk me, he'd rip their hand off.

He trusts and respects me.

As you well know, the honor of that is priceless.