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Patriot08 posts that list seemingly to every thread that discusses the election. Try as I’d like to ignore them after the 5th or 6th time seeing it, the list keeps being brought up again and again. And sadly, even though errors have been pointed out again and again, the exact same list keeps getting posted, with the same false assertions and links to badly researched and debunked claims.

It is typical of the argument that, after I’ve pointed out more than once that there is real fraud, and this list is hurting our chances of addressing it, that you claim that I live in a pretend world of “no voter fraud”. But since you said you don’t read what I write, I guess it’s not surprising that you make up what I said to suit your purposes.

I’ve played the game before, where someone posts dozens of links, and you pick one, and debunk it for them, and they just keep posting it, and claiming that everything is accurate, and you figure maybe ONE of the links is accurate, but most aren’t.

THat’s why I’ve asked to be given a SINGLE claim to research. I’m through wasting my time randomly picking and debunking links, only to have that work ignored, and the same stuff posted again and again.

The challenge is out there. You are certain the election was stolen by fraud, so it should be easy to provide one example where one state was stolen by fraud.

Of course, if you really could, the GOP would be all over it, as would all the politicians who were affected, because in the real world that’s what happens — it’s only in the fantasy world that the party and the politicians are all unmotivated spineless cowards who will meekly accept getting elections brazenly stolen.

We’ve just been working to prove or debunk a claim at one of our local precincts, and it’s beginning to look pretty certain that the claims made were false — we’ve got information from an election supervisor from our side, and one of the lawyers assigned to watch the polls. But the story keeps getting circulation, because the person making the claim went on the news so there’s a news story you can watch and listen to the claims.

I point that out to note that a lot of links you see are similar youtubes with people making claims. Claims are not evidence, they are things to be investigated. People don’t know what they are seeing.

For example, there is a story about somali voters. Missing in that story is proof that these voters had not become naturalized citizens. Because there are foreigners who go through the process, get their citizenship, and vote. Do I know if these particular people did that? Certainly not. Do I want to investigate that claim? Yes. But will I simply go off and claim without evidence that these were illegal voters — no, because if you are going to claim someone is breaking the law, you should actually have evidence other than “they look foreign”.

Because frankly, running around and claiming that every foreign-looking person is an illegal voter is not a good way to broaden the appeal of the party, or to advance conservative values.

As to the Birther issue, my advice is to not call conjecture “fact”. The documents have not been “proven” to be forgeries, or has anybody “proven” that Obama was not born in Hawaii. I’m not objecting to people investigating these issues, nor am I indifferent to the outcome.

But more importantly, Obama is President. That fact is not changed by anybody’s belief in whether he met the eligibility requirements, any more than Bush’s presidency was any less real because Gore and many of his supporters were sure that the Supreme Court acted unconstitutionally to interfere in Florida’s assignment of their electoral votes.

Obama isn’t the first president for which eligibility issues were raised, and that previous case didn’t amount to anything either. And it’s not as if we would solve a problem if we got Biden into the Presidency.

Just as in 2000, the courts made a determination on the election, the courts have been asked to rule and have done so regarding Obama’s eligibility, and none yet have chosen to accept the theories being presented.

Not all things that might be correct are helpful. The birther focus has not been particularly helpful. Although I guess as long as you can argue that the election was stolen, you can avoid having to address the damage done to winning the election by the choice of candidate or the distraction of arguments about eligibility which keep us from attracting the voters we need to actually win elections.