Muslims Riot, Jews Banned from Temple Mount

That sounds like tradition to me. What does Scripture say?

Then the word of the Lord came by Haggai the prophet, saying, “Is it time for you yourselves to dwell in your paneled houses, and this temple[a] to lie in ruins?” Now therefore, thus says the Lord of hosts: “Consider your ways! [...] Thus says the Lord of hosts: “Consider your ways! Go up to the mountains and bring wood and build the temple, that I may take pleasure in it and be glorified,” says the Lord. (Hagai 1:3-5, 7-8)

That sounds like tradition to me. What does Scripture say?

You hear that, Eleutheria? It's not in Scripture! You know, like the rules and regulations for calculating the dates of the new moon and when the months begin? It's not in Scripture! It must be false! We don't have a calendar after all!

And you know how the Torah commands some sacrifices to be "waved" and others to be "heaved" but doesn't explain how to carry these actions out? I guess there can't be any way to do them, because it's only in tradition!

And you know how the actual written Torah is nothing but a string of consonants with no vowels or punctuation of any kind? The vowels we have are tradition! We should throw them all out and just use the consonants!

I usually stick up for the Protestants, but when they bring their quarrel with the Catholic Church where it doesn't belong, I just . . . ARG!

Zionist, I am sure you understand that I was pointing out the difference between believing that God will rebuild the Temple, because that's what other people have said, or believing that the nation of Israel must rebuild it because that's what God Himself said. Personally, all that matters is that it will be rebuilt!

We, Baptists, have traditions too. I agree with you that there are things that we are not given directions about the best way to carry them out. So we develop traditions. But I draw the line when there are specific directions from the Lord. And, through Haggai, He made it very clear that He wanted His people to rebuild His house. Those are His words, not mine.

Is there any reason to assume that the words of the first chapter of Haggai don't apply to today's situation? If that's the case I would like to hear the argument. Bringing up the disagreements between Catholic and Protestant Christians does nothing to support your case.

The entire issue is argued back and forth in the Talmud, whose sages were well aware of what it said in Haggai and elsewhere. Since I am no accomplished Talmudist or Scriptoral scholar, but am working slowly on both, I’d rather not be the answer man here. But I will say that the passage from Hagai you quote is itself problematic, because very little of the First or Second Temples was made of wood, stone being preferred for permanent structures, and Hagai was written before the construction of the Second Temple. In general, however, people talk of prophecies in Daniel, Ezekiel and Co., and I try to steer clear of it. Too much is subject to interpretation, and too much of it is reading contemporary events into these prophecies. I believe in them all, but I also believe my understanding if them is limited, and that in the End it will all become clear, especially vis a vis the events as they unfold. I therefore tend to close my ears to the interpretations, and let the events unfold, viewing them purely in a pragmatic light. Eventually, the meaning of Scripture will be understood by itself, without anyone interpreting, because “The Earth will be filled with Knowledge of G-d, as the waters cover the ocean”.

Can’t we all just get along:-?

Lol! Eleutheria, you have to understand that Protestantism's birth certificate is its rejection of Roman Catholic/Eastern Orthodox church tradition. Unfortunately, most Protestants don't realize that that argument has no relevance to Judaism.

All the same, I realize that I was overly harsh to Former Fetus and the combination of the pic with my sarcastic post could be interpreted as public ridicule. For this I am truly sorry and I most sincerely publicly apologize. I've been quite out of sorts the past couple days, as I'm sure we all have.

very little of the First or Second Temples was made of wood

Perhaps, but 1 Kings 6:16, 20, 21, 30 tells us that the Holy of Hollies was floored and wainscotted with cedar of Lebanon and its walls and floor were overlaid with gold. The point is not what percentage of the Temple was built with wood, but the fact that the Lord had said build the temple, that I may take pleasure in it and be glorified. If there's a reason why this does not apply to today's Israel, I would love to read about it.

Already answered. Hagai was chronologically between the building of the First Temple, its destruction, and the building of the Second. Both were built by human effort. It is not determinative, however, of how the Third Temple will be built.

In a very real sense, we are building it right now, with the Mitzvot that we do, each of which brings the final Redemption of the entire world and the rebuilding of the Temple that much closer.

Personally, I would be in favor of making bricks right now, for the construction of the gates, which is incumbent on us to do, and on each brick to engrave the name of someone who was murdered ‘al kidush Hashem’ (to sanctify G-d’s name), starting with the most recent victims of terror, and going back as far as there are names of the victims. I do not, however, know how to kiln bricks, or how to engrave names on them, let alone possess a kiln and a stylus, and don’t have enough time to compile all the names.

But all this is does not involve destroying the Muslims’ golden potty, deliberately looking for all-out war, or anything quite so drastic. For all we know, the war of Gog and Magog might become subliminalized into a spiritual contest. If it becomes a great and terrible physical confrontation, it will do so on its own, though. No need to deliberately light the fuse. In the end, the Third Temple will be there, and the mosque will not. Our role in bringing that about is not specifically detailed.

Harsh prophecies can be sweetened by our good actions. Prophecies that bestow good on someone are never corroded. Thus, because G-d promised to make Moses into a great nation, there is a great nation descended from Moses somewhere (this from the Talmud, Berachot, I forget what page, but in Chapter 1). But G-d also said in the same breath that he would destroy the Children of Israel. That was not fulfilled then, although in every punishment inflicted on us, a small portion of the sin of the Golden Calf is also repaid.

It is not determinative, however, of how the Third Temple will be built.

Fair enough, how do we know then how the Third Temple will be built? Or more to the point, are you saying that those people who have a cornerstone (and quite a few other stones) ready are wrong in doing so? I know the fellow who started the Temple Mount Faithful is convinced that the Lord wants the Temple rebuilt in this generation.

with the Mitzvot that we do, each of which brings the final Redemption of the entire world and the rebuilding of the Temple that much closer

Wouldn't that be nice? Yes, I would like to think that there's something I can do to bring about the Messianic Age any sooner.

does not involve destroying the Muslims’ golden potty, deliberately looking for all-out war

It's been a while that I read the Northern wall of the Temple Mount is bulging, could collapse with a small tremor. So, maybe there will be no need to deliberately destroy anything, although such a collapse will be blamed on Israel and war just as likely as if y'all dropped a MOAB on the mosque.

this from the Talmud, Berachot, I forget what page, but in Chapter 1

Is it available on-line, in English? More important, would I be able to understand any of it?

“Fair enough, how do we know then how the Third Temple will be built? Or more to the point, are you saying that those people who have a cornerstone (and quite a few other stones) ready are wrong in doing so?”

You skipped part of what I said. I am all for making bricks for the Third Temple, with the names of Karbanot (martyrs) engraved on them. For that matter, there is a very important opinion in the Talmud, much sited by the Lubavitcher Rebbe, that there is no contradiction. The Third Temple will descend from on high, and we will build the gates with our own hands. So my bricks would go for the gates. The Rebbe, btw, wanted so much for the Third Temple to be built in our generation, that he concluded almost every lecture he gave with a prayer for just that. Unfortunately, I don’t have the resources to execute my brick-making and engraving project.

“It’s been a while that I read the Northern wall of the Temple Mount is bulging, could collapse with a small tremor. So, maybe there will be no need to deliberately destroy anything, although such a collapse will be blamed on Israel and war just as likely as if y’all dropped a MOAB on the mosque.”

Those moral retards are already blaming the structural instability on archeologists, who are, you guessed it, part of a Zionist conspiracy. The truth is, they caused it with their unauthorized excavations on the Temple Mount in order to remove Jewish artifacts, which “inexplicably” showed up at the municipal dump.

“Is it available on-line, in English? More important, would I be able to understand any of it?”

Sure. http://www.yutorah.org/daf.cfm has English audio, although today’s class is on Tractate Shabbat. But you can flip back to Berachot. It is all very accessible, especially with the English explanation, which would be more helpful than just straight English text, because it is meant for a very elementary level of student. That being said, for your convenience here is a site with the straight English text: http://halakhah.com/berakoth/index.html I recommend that you listen to the audios on the first site along with this. Talmud has its own peculiar logical system, and some guidance would be useful, at least in the beginning.

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.