[John Valentine]

There are only two possible systems for creation of life, ethics, and order: supernatural, or natural.

Are you going for humor here? I reject your artificial binary choice, as should anyone willing to give the matter honest and unfettered consideration.

Also, I doubt I will devote any time to the book you suggest as it appears that the book is intent on destroying an argument I would never make, and as such would not offer anything relevant to me.

I will only say that both sides seem to insist on defining terms in such a way as to devalue the arguments of the other side. It's really simple, if you control the definitions, you control the outcome of the debate - and destroy any chance of deeper understanding in the process.

[mikeus_maximus]

Artificial binary choice? The only alternative is that life, ethics and order somehow have both a natural and supernatural creative origin-- the logical equivalent of being half pregnant. Perhaps you'd care to explain exactly how that's logically consistent.