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Freedom: The Unfolding Revolution
National Review ^ | June 14, 2013 | National Review

Posted on 06/14/2013 6:21:32 AM PDT by National Review

The libertarian idea is the only truly new political idea in the last couple thousand years.

By Jonah Goldberg

‘Why are there no libertarian countries?”

In a much-discussed essay for Salon, Michael Lind asks: “If libertarians are correct in claiming that they understand how best to organize a modern society, how is it that not a single country in the world in the early twenty-first century is organized along libertarian lines?”

(Excerpt) Read more at nationalreview.com ...


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Editorial; Government; Philosophy
KEYWORDS: freedom; jonahgoldberg; libertarian
Read more at: http://www.nationalreview.com/article/351021/freedom-unfolding-revolution-jonah-goldberg
1 posted on 06/14/2013 6:21:32 AM PDT by National Review
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To: National Review

Why do all socialist countries fail?
Why doesn’t communism work?

Why hasn’t the Republic of the United States flourished? Which started out libertarian.. because we have socialist and communist trying to destroy it.


2 posted on 06/14/2013 6:36:44 AM PDT by maddog55 (America Rising.... Civil War II)
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To: maddog55

Libertarianism depends upon personal responsibility, and in today’s society, that is a commodity that is in short supply.
And for that reason you will never find a society that will function over the long haul.


3 posted on 06/14/2013 7:04:37 AM PDT by WILLIALAL
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To: National Review
‘Why are there no libertarian countries?” It has to do with the fallen nature of mankind... I'm reminded of a song by Daniel Amos called Incredible Shrinking Man... a line in the song is goe like this, "From wells of power you take a drink, You drown in it, It's bigger than you think..."

No man can humbly and graciously wield power. Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely... that's just the way it is. We were made to live in another kingdom, the kingdom of God. One day, not too far out now, Jesus will be back and will rule the world for a thousand years, and after that a whole new reality. That's where I'm headed. In this world you're either scrambling and grappling to get above someone else, or your patiently waiting and working, for King Jesus...

4 posted on 06/14/2013 7:17:17 AM PDT by dps.inspect (rage against the Obama machine...)
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To: National Review

America was basically a libertarian country until the government was given the ability to tax income. Since then it has simply engaged in global wars and vast growth of government.

The supreme court ruled three times taxing income was Un-constitutional, the last being 1899. Then they added the amendment allowing it.


5 posted on 06/14/2013 7:27:15 AM PDT by edcoil (If you can't change the rules, then ignore them.)
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To: National Review
The libertarian idea is the only truly new political idea in the last couple thousand years.

Mr. Goldberg clearly does not understand the Torah.

6 posted on 06/14/2013 7:37:41 AM PDT by Carry_Okie (An economy is not a zero-sum game, but politics usually is.)
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To: Carry_Okie

How old is the Torah?


7 posted on 06/14/2013 7:54:23 AM PDT by Daveinyork
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To: Daveinyork
3500 years.

The "libertarian" system invented since emphasizes the individual at the expense of family. That fractures families, thus building individuals incapable of settling their own issues. Dispute is the mother's milk of government.

QED

8 posted on 06/14/2013 8:19:35 AM PDT by Carry_Okie (An economy is not a zero-sum game, but politics usually is.)
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To: National Review
That phrase, “the wave of the future,” became famous thanks to a 1940 essay by Anne Morrow Lindbergh. She argued that the time of liberal democratic capitalism was drawing to a close and the smart money was on statism of one flavor or another — fascism, Communism, socialism, etc. What was lost on her, and millions of others, was that this wasn’t progress toward the new, but regression to the past. These “waves of the future” were simply gussied-up tribalisms, anachronisms made gaudy with the trappings of modernity, like a gibbon in a spacesuit.

Barbarity is the wave of the past. It always looks new and exciting to those who've never troubled themselves actually to look at the past.

9 posted on 06/14/2013 8:21:24 AM PDT by Standing Wolf
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To: National Review
Libertarianism requires a mature, adult electorate. One would not run a kindergarten classroom under libertarian principles - and today's America is a giant kindergarten classroom.

Probably the best compromise - unpalatable to all statists, of course - is for government to maintain a guiding principle of respecting and uplifting creators and disrespecting and cracking down on (by denying the vote to) destroyers.

One can imagine a society where cities are run by Rudy Giulianis and Lee Kwan Yews - somewhat authoritarian systems with zero tolerance for destructive behavior but which protect and respect those who live and create and build within their limits. Rural areas, which by definition require more self-reliance to live in successfully, would be governed in a more libertarian manner.

Libertarian-minded citizens would understand that they have to give up certain privileges to live in a densely populated city, but in turn they would be assured that they would not be preyed upon by a greedy government and that private citizens who attempted to destroy them would be dealt with harshly. Much is made by libertarian critics of limitations on on free speech in Giuliani's New York and Lee's Singapore - but those measures were aimed at Communists and criminals, and the economic results speak for themselves.

This world is probably not too dissimilar to the USA of fifty years ago, notwithstanding many local injustices and corruptions which somehow became the reason for liberty-destroying Federal statutes.

10 posted on 06/14/2013 8:42:43 AM PDT by Mr. Jeeves (CTRL-GALT-DELETE)
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To: Carry_Okie

Wrong. the libertarian emphasizes the individual freedom over government control. and your use of the word “system” shows your bigotry and ignorance.


11 posted on 06/14/2013 9:19:39 AM PDT by Daveinyork
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To: Daveinyork
Wrong. the libertarian emphasizes the individual freedom over government control.

The libertarian ends up precipitating government control at the expense of freedom because of the emphasis upon the individual at the expense of family.

and your use of the word “system” shows your bigotry and ignorance.

Unfortunately for your thesis, I know where it goes. I've done more for libertarian economics than you ever will.

12 posted on 06/14/2013 9:30:47 AM PDT by Carry_Okie (An economy is not a zero-sum game, but politics usually is.)
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To: Carry_Okie
The libertarian ends up precipitating government control at the expense of freedom because of the emphasis upon the individual at the expense of family.

Laughable.

13 posted on 06/14/2013 9:35:56 AM PDT by sargon (I don't like the sound of these here Boncentration Bamps!)
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To: National Review

I have not yet read the National Review article, but I have been talking to Libertarians on the WSJ comment boards and have some insights into the new, young Libertarian thinking. ( The Libertarians have their own blog site on the WSJ comment board)

These young, mostly college age Libertarians consider themselves to be philosophically closer to the Liberals than to the Conservatives, mostly because they are atheists, with an antipathy toward Christians and Christian beliefs. Their ideas are closer to the OWS than to the TeaParty. These new Libertarians claim a desire for individual freedom, but only for those who agree with them. It’s freedom for me, but not for thee. They claim a need for higher taxes, support Gay marriage, oppose corporate profits, which they see as excessive. They support amnesty, and some of them have even argued that crony capitalism can be a good thing. Mostly, these new Libertarians just hate Christians, but they have argued many times for higher taxes and lower interest on school loans.


14 posted on 06/14/2013 9:58:42 AM PDT by Eva
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To: Carry_Okie

You’re just wrong. Libertarianism emphasizes individual freedom over government coercion, and ultimately government violence. You seem to favor the use of government violence against innocent individuals, if you oppose individual freedom, as you seem to imply.

“The libertarian ends up precipitating government control at the expense of freedom because of the emphasis upon the individual at the expense of family.”

Huh? where has that happened?


15 posted on 06/14/2013 10:00:31 AM PDT by Daveinyork
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To: sargon
Laughable.

A typically clueless libertarian reply. I take it you think I'm talking about a nuclear family alone. You are mistaken. By "family" I meant what is effectively a tribe.

Before you go assuming you know what I'm talking about, best you understand what is in the Torah and how the system it posed works. VERY few people do, if any, yet the origins of its precepts are observable worldwide in the enduring attributes of tribal cultures.

Name one agro-urban civilization that has survived half as long as the Masai, the Bushmen, the Lapps, the Magyars, the Innuit, the Bedouin, the Aborigines... The principles underlying the Torah were meant to transfer the properties that enabled those tribes to endure onto a nation comprising combined agro-urban AND nomadic components, cross fertilizing the former with the ideas of the latter. It never happened. Post-exilic Judaism made a valiant attempt to interpret those ideas, yet because of that urban lens ended up making a mess of it. We have been stuck with an urban intellectual's interpretation of how that tribal system was supposed to function ever since. It was an internally structured poly-archy, with the Law as its organizing element. The only thing that resembled a government were to be the judges' rulings as to how it applied.

16 posted on 06/14/2013 10:04:05 AM PDT by Carry_Okie (An economy is not a zero-sum game, but politics usually is.)
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To: National Review

The claim that Libertarians know best how to organize society is laughable, because it is an oxymoron, Libertarians supposedly oppose government organization.


17 posted on 06/14/2013 10:08:06 AM PDT by Eva
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To: edcoil
"America was basically a libertarian country until the government was given the ability to tax income. Since then it has simply engaged in global wars and vast growth of government."

That and regulatory capture. We have corporatism now.

There's a revolving door between corporate management and government that is modeled after the Big-4 accounting firms HR policy of "up or out" - either become a partner or join industry and become an advocate for the firm you left.

18 posted on 06/14/2013 10:10:44 AM PDT by uncommonsense (Liberals see what they believe; Conservatives believe what they see.)
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To: Daveinyork
You seem to favor the use of government violence against innocent individuals, if you oppose individual freedom, as you seem to imply.

I didn't imply that. You made a twisted inference because I dared to criticize libertarian ideas as effectively half-baked, simply because individuals doing whatever they desire will necessarily find conflict regarding the use of property. I've been listening to them talk as if they will eventually figure out how to manage externalities and markets in risk for twenty years, with the same excuse, "We've got really smart people working on that." Well, they still are. Wake me up when the Von Mises Institute thinks they've got it right. Meanwhile, they use the excuse to hustle money.

Huh? where has that happened?

Nowhere, because libertarianism hasn't happened.

19 posted on 06/14/2013 10:16:31 AM PDT by Carry_Okie (An economy is not a zero-sum game, but politics usually is.)
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To: National Review

Ok, so I read Goldberg’s article and have a couple of observations.

The new version of Libertarians are the same as the old, only in that they emphasize individual freedom, but only for fellow travelers. The new Libertarians see Christians as the Great Oppressors, not the Government.

The new Libertarians demand a freedom from religion, from Christianity, that is, not other religions. They feel that if they could free the country of Christianity, the country’s disparate groups could all join hands and sing Kumbayah. No war on drugs, no defense of marriage, abortion any time, and probably free. They see Christians as the main opposition group and think that if they could get rid of Christians, and their judgmental philosophy, the world would be a better place.


20 posted on 06/14/2013 10:24:21 AM PDT by Eva
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To: National Review

” how is it that not a single country in the world in the early twenty-first century is organized along libertarian lines?””

The US Constitution is. Without question it is about limited government. One socialist after another has been trying to take it over and control it ever since it was born.


21 posted on 06/14/2013 10:42:04 AM PDT by CodeToad (Liberals are bloodsucking ticks. We need to light the matchstick to burn them off. -786 +969)
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To: sargon
Name one agro-urban civilization that has survived half as long as the Masai, the Bushmen, the Lapps, the Magyars, the Innuit, the Bedouin, the Aborigines... The principles underlying the Torah were meant to transfer the properties that enabled those tribes to endure onto a nation comprising combined agro-urban AND nomadic components, cross fertilizing the former with the ideas of the latter. It never happened. Post-exilic Judaism made a valiant attempt to interpret those ideas, yet because of that urban lens ended up making a mess of it. We have been stuck with an urban intellectual's interpretation of how that tribal system was supposed to function ever since. It was an internally structured poly-archy, with the Law as its organizing element. The only thing that resembled a government were to be the judges' rulings as to how it applied.

Torah, Schmorah. Agro-urban? Is America agro-urban? In any event, we're still here, but we've only been around 238 years or so. Sorry we couldn't have started sooner.

I don't have any preconceived notion about how the tribal system is "supposed" to function. As far as I'm concerned, it's supposed to function however its individuals decide it's supposed to function, presuming it doesn't trample the unalienable rights of said individuals. Anything else is sub-optimum.

The libertarian ends up precipitating government control at the expense of freedom because of the emphasis upon the individual at the expense of family.

Still laughable. Your broad-brush smear on libertarians is neither justified nor accurate. The onus of backing up your assertion is on you. Provide evidence of your claim. How is the emphasis on the individual at the "expense" of the family? What individual rights must necessarily be curtailed to prevent such a situation?

When individuals are fully empowered, families (loosely defined) are at their strongest and most independent.

Are you saying "It takes a village?"

22 posted on 06/14/2013 10:57:48 AM PDT by sargon (I don't like the sound of these here Boncentration Bamps!)
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To: Carry_Okie
My reply was obviously to Carrie_Okie's knee-jerk libertarian smear, not myself, of course.
23 posted on 06/14/2013 11:00:16 AM PDT by sargon (I don't like the sound of these here Boncentration Bamps!)
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To: Carry_Okie

You criticize libertarian ideas when you have exhibit no clue as to what they are. It’s the straw man you set up that you knock down. Liberals often do that with conservatism.


24 posted on 06/14/2013 11:28:28 AM PDT by Daveinyork
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To: National Review

If this is an official NR account, welcome to FR and thank you for reaching out to FReepers.


25 posted on 06/14/2013 12:32:59 PM PDT by BuckeyeTexan (There are those that break and bend. I'm the other kind. ~Steve Earle)
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To: WILLIALAL

Libertarianism is just another political party.

Its amazing to see how the values and the party platforms of libertarians have evolved in the last 20 years or so.


26 posted on 06/14/2013 2:58:13 PM PDT by Responsibility2nd (NO LIBS. This Means Liberals and (L)libertarians! Same Thing. NO LIBS!!)
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To: Daveinyork

Why you take offense at the concept of a libertarian system?

Libs are just another political venue in this country clammoring for their spot in the sun. For their piece of the pie. And for that 420 to be legal.

(See tagline)


27 posted on 06/14/2013 3:01:35 PM PDT by Responsibility2nd (NO LIBS. This Means Liberals and (L)libertarians! Same Thing. NO LIBS!!)
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To: Responsibility2nd

I don’t take offense. It’s just that your straw man arguments have no place on this intelligent board. If you don’t want freedom, that’s your choice, and maybe your last one, because if you’re not free, your only choices are slavery or death. Keep your power hungry hands off the rest of us.


28 posted on 06/15/2013 4:35:25 AM PDT by Daveinyork
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