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To: TArcher

I have read the entire text at http://www.jrbooksonline.com/PDF_Books/JewsAndTheirLies.pdf and did not see that in there. Where are you finding that?

I Googled that entire quote that you gave so that I could see if anybody cited a reference page or showed it in context. There are a lot of sites claiming that Luther said that in this writing, but nobody gave full context or referenced pages or links, and now I know why, because (unless the pdf I just read is not complete) that quote is not in there. The other quotes I found that were supposedly cited from this writing of Luther are snippets cobbled together out of context - the exact same kind of deception and lies that Luther accused the Jews of his day of doing.

In the last page of that PDF Luther is addressing the Jews’ claims that they are being held captive by the Christians. Luther says they are free to go, are not being held captive by anybody, and that he wishes they could be in Jerusalem. He says that Christians are perhaps enabling them in their wrong-doing by not enacting justice for the crimes and by letting them mooch off of them. It sounds very much like what you hear around here about the welfare state and about the corrupt government. I have never thought of folks here as being “racist” against government because they hate the corruption of government. I have never accused anybody here of trying to burn down mosques because they say that Mohammed took an 8-year-old wife and his followers do the same. In this writing Luther says the Jews were doing the same thing that the papists, Muslims, some other Christians, Isreal of the Bible, etc have done. If he is bigoted against Jews by hating what they are doing then he was a bigot against his own self also, since he calls himself a worm, etc. His point is that we are all sinners with nothing to boast about before the Lord, and he is very clearly tired of the lies and deceptions. Really ironic that those who call Luther anti-semitic have apparently fabricated quotes from him.


66 posted on 06/16/2013 6:11:13 PM PDT by butterdezillion (,)
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To: butterdezillion

>>Where are you finding that?

Same place you are.

Certainly NOT anywhere in the LCMS curriculum.

Why is that this particular work of Luther’s has been left for blind sided discovery by the unsuspecting instead of being confronted and disarmed?

The network of schools and teachers the LCMS formerly had at its disposal certainly would’ve been an ideal instrument for doing so.

Didn’t the LCMS know about it?


68 posted on 06/16/2013 6:34:57 PM PDT by TArcher ("TO SECURE THESE RIGHTS, governments are instituted among men" -- Does that still work?)
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To: butterdezillion
Your link doesn't work.
Here's one that does:

Chapter 11

What shall we Christians do with this rejected and condemned people, the Jews? Since they live among us, we dare not tolerate their conduct, now that we are aware of their lying and reviling and blaspheming. If we do, we become sharers in their lies, cursing and blasphemy. Thus we cannot extinguish the unquenchable fire of divine wrath, of which the prophets speak, nor can we convert the Jews. With prayer and the fear of God we must practice a sharp mercy to see whether we might save at least a few from the glowing flames. We dare not avenge ourselves. Vengeance a thousand times worse than we could wish them already has them by the throat. I shall give you my sincere advice:

First, to set fire to their synagogues or schools and to bury and cover with dirt whatever will not burn, so that no man will ever again see a stone or cinder of them. This is to be done in honor of our Lord and of Christendom, so that God might see that we are Christians, and do not condone or knowingly tolerate such public lying, cursing, and blaspheming of his Son and of his Christians. For whatever we tolerated in the past unknowingly_and I myself was unaware of it_will be pardoned by God. But if we, now that we are informed, were to protect and shield such a house for the Jews, existing right before our very nose, in which they lie about, blaspheme, curse, vilify, and defame Christ and us (as was heard above), it would be the same as if we were doing all this and even worse ourselves, as we very well know....

http://www.colchestercollection.com/titles/chunk/O/on-the-jews/chapter11.html

 
 I found several other inconsistent versions - for example look at this section:
[they have been blood thirsty bloodhounds and murderers of all Christendom for more than fourteen hundred years in their intentions, and would undoubtedly prefer to be such with their deeds. Thus they have been accused of poisoning water and wells, of kidnaping children, of piercing them through with an awl, of hacking them in pieces, and in that way secretly cooling their wrath with the blood of Christians, for all of which they have often been condemned to death by fire.]
 
[For these Jews are much holier than were those in the Babylonian captivity, who did not curse, who did not secretly shed the blood of children, nor poison the water, but who rather as Jeremiah had instructed them [Jer. 29:7] prayed for their captors, the Babylonians. The reason is that they were not as holy as the present-day Jews, nor did they have such smart rabbis as the present-day Jews have; for Jeremiah, Daniel, and Ezekiel were big fools to teach this. They would, I suppose, be torn to shreds by the teeth of today's Jews.]
http://www.vho.org/aaargh/fran/livres9/Luthereng.pdf#page=1&zoom=auto,0,89
 
Another version supposedly translates (or mistranslates) the German thus:
[In history, therefore, they are often accused of poisoning wells, stealing children and mutilating them; as in Trent, Weiszensee, etc. Of course, they deny this. Be it so or not, however, I know full well that the full, ready will is not lacking
with them if they could only transform it into deeds, in secret or openly. Know this for a certainty and aut accordingly]
 
Shed the blood of Children? Awls? Hacking to pieces?  Poisoning the water?
 
Oh dear. Well that's all very disturbing. 
 
Q1:  Is there historical evidence that corroborates Luther's (alleged) assertion the Jews did those things?
 
["not as holy as the present-day Jews"]
Was that "holy" religious nature manufactured by humans -- or was it manufactured by their Creator?
 
 
[the unjust God lets such holy people curse (I wanted to say "pray") so vehemently in vain against our Messiah
and all Christians. He does not care to see or have anything to do either with them or with their pious conduct, which is so thickly, thickly, heavily, heavily coated with the blood of the Messiah and his Christians.]
http://www.colchestercollection.com/titles/pdf/O/on-the-jews.pdf  (page 129)
 
 
 
Hmmm.  Unjust God?  Coated with the blood? 

Hard to believe Luther wrote that ---  Especially given that the cross being heavily coated with the blameless blood of the Lamb/Messiah was SORT OF THE WHOLE SACRIFICIAL CRUX upon which the resurrection was hung.

http://www.jrbooksonline.com/PDF_Books/JewsAndTheirLies.pdf
http://www.colchestercollection.com/titles/pdf/O/on-the-jews.pdf
http://www.resist.com/Instauration/OtherPubs-20120723/TheJewsAndTheirLies-Luther.pdf
http://www.vho.org/aaargh/fran/livres9/Luthereng.pdf
 
Which one is reliable?

Q2:  Is the self-evident fact that NO mention of, NOR any authoritative reference translation of, the work in question can be found at...
 
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&source=hp&biw=&bih=&q=%22Jews+and+their+lies%22+site%3Awww.lcms.org&btnG=Google+Search&gbv=1
 
...an ERROR?

 

69 posted on 06/16/2013 8:07:41 PM PDT by TArcher ("TO SECURE THESE RIGHTS, governments are instituted among men" -- Does that still work?)
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