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To: tanknetter; central_va; Ditto; rockrr
tanknetter: "The "Civil War" as we generally recognize it was really a war of secession.
The Confederates never had any intention of overthrowing the Federal Government, they just wanted separation."

In fact, from Day One, secession and Confederate government were all about overthrowing Federal Government in states where Slave-Power operated.

In the seven Deep South states (South Carolina to Texas), where nearly half of all households owned slaves, there was never much doubt about popular will regarding slavery -- though Union leaders like Lincoln did believe those states retained enough love of Union to overcome secessionist impulses.
And regardless of popularity, unilateral-secession remained unconstitutional, illegal and illegitimate in Unionist eyes.

But, in four Upper South states (Virginia to Arkansas) with only about 25% slave-holding households, the issue was much more closely decided.
All of those states had large areas of few-to-no slave-holders who first opposed secession and later supplied troops for Union forces.
Those states could well be classified as "contested", and the war there, by your definition "civil war".

Indeed, one of those "contested" states split apart, forming West Virginia, while another, Eastern Tennessee attempted the same, unsuccessfully.

And the four Border States (Delaware to Missouri) had even fewer slave-holding families, typically around 10%.
There Slave-Power's political clout was not enough to overcome love of Union, and so Confederates engaged in little more than guerrilla war.
Civil War, yes, but also a war to overthrow Federal government in those states.

Beyond civil war within southern slave-holding states, the Confederacy also invaded & waged war in northern Union states and territories, including Pennsylvania, Ohio, Indiana, Kansas, Oklahoma, New Mexico and on a smaller scale several others further removed: Arizona, Colorado, California, Vermont and (we now see) even New York.

That's why any claims that "Confederates never had any intention of overthrowing the Federal Government" are really just disingenuous.
The truth is that the Confederacy was 100% as aggressive toward the Union as it could be.
If it failed to invade a certain state -- i.e., Illinois in 1862 -- the reason was not lack of ambition or plans, but rather their physical inability, in this case resulting from Grant's victories at Forts Henry and Donaldson.

In another example, Lee's 1863 march into Pennsylvania was not originally intended to be just a quick in-and-out.
What Lee intended was to set up a permanent base of operations at the great railroad center in Harrisburg, PA.
This was to be his major bargaining chip in negotiating Union surrender.

The same rule applies to the oft-repeated claim that "slavery was dying out anyway."
Yes, but the whole point of the Confederacy was to protect and expand its "peculiar institution".
A militarily successful Confederacy would become the home-base for expansions into the Caribbean and beyond: a new world-power "Empire of slavery".
It was slavery's "last best hope on earth", and when it failed, slavery failed with it.
But had it emerged successful, the world today would be a much different place.

tanknetter: "a lot of the fighting - exceptionally bitter and viscous - took place outside the scope of control of the CSA leadership and senior generals."

Sure, but also some within their control, of which all three assaults on Chambersburg, PA, and the Lawrence (Kansas) Massacre are examples.

219 posted on 06/19/2013 5:10:25 AM PDT by BroJoeK (a little historical perspective....)
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To: BroJoeK; tanknetter
The vote was razor thin in Virgina, with the secession just barely passing 114,260 to 20,352. A real sqeaker.

Counties and by Whom Represented
County For Secession Against Secession Now in West Virginia
Accomac Not Found
Albemarle 2308 1
Alexandria 958 48
Alleghany 554 12
Amelia 472 0
Amherst 1492 0
Appomattox 805 0
Augusta 3130 10
Barbour 857 626 Yes
Bath 403 2
Bedford 2329 1
Berkeley 508 1303 Yes
Boone 317 226 Yes
Botetourt 1207 2
Braxton 553 114 Yes
Brooke 109 721 Yes
Brunswick 840 0
Buchanan Not Found
Buckingham 1062 0
Cabell 232 882 Yes
Calhoun 279 81 Yes
Campbell 2504 0
Caroline 1245 0
Carroll 867 130
Charles City 311 1
Charlotte 883 0
Chesterfield 1421 0
Clarke Not Found
Clay 102 102 Yes
Craig Not found
Culpeper 1051 0
Cumberland 523 0
Dinwiddie 805 1
Doddridge Not Found Yes
Elizabeth City 343 6
Essex 581 0
Fairfax 942 288
Fauquier 1809 4
Fayette 508 223
Floyd 896 20
Fluvanna 880 0
Franklin 1787 3
Frederick 1503 359
Giles 1067 0
Gilmer 338 186 Yes
Gloucester 860 1
Goochland 673 0
Grayson 1077 0
Greenbrier 1016 110 Yes
Greene 604 0
Greensville 322 0
Halifax 1747 0
Hampshire 1110 700 Yes
Hancock 23 743 Yes
Hanover 1240 0
Hardy 768 538 Yes
Harrison 614 1691 Yes
Henrico 1712 0
Henry 925 1
Highland 568 5
Isle of Wight 832 0
Jackson Not Found Yes
James City 239 0
Williamsburg 135 0
Jefferson 813 365 Yes
Kanawha 520 1697 Yes
King and Queen 873 0
King George 478 1
King William 496 0
Lancaster 432 0
Lee 1005 170
Lewis 422 736 Yes
Logan 518 63 Yes
Loudoun 1621 726
Louisa 1167 0
Lunenburg 905 0
McDowell 196 17 Yes
Madison 833 0
Marion Not Found Yes
Marshall 142 1993 Yes
Mason 119 1841 Yes
Mathews 645 0
Mecklenburg 1286 0
Mercer 871 67 Yes
Middlesex 491 2
Monroe 1189 79 Yes
Monogoalia 110 2148 Yes
Montgomery 1395 0
Morgan 126 533 Yes
Nansemond 1012 0
Nelson 1164 0
Norfolk 2001 158
Norfolk City 1172 6
Northampton 505 0
Northumberland 548 47
Nottoway 374 0
Ohio 157 3368 Yes
Orange 853 0
Page 1099 4
Patrick Not Found
Pendleton 696 131 Yes
Pittsylvania 2469 0
Pleasants 158 303 Yes
Pocahontas 360 13
Powhatan 451 0
Preston 63 2256 Yes
Prince Edward 688 0
Prince George 364 2
Prince William 841 38
Princess Anne 798 0
Pulaski 603 0
Putnam 216 695 Yes
Raleigh 229 183 Yes
Randolph Not Found Yes
Rappahannock 943 0
Richmond 556 14
Ritchie Not Found Yes
Roane Not Found Yes
Roanoke 853 0
Rockbridge 1728 1
Rockingham 3012 22
Russell 832 89
Scott 842 139
Shenandoah 2513 5
Smyth 1281 0
Spotsylvania 1323 0
Stafford 701 4
Surry 353 0
Sussex 497 1
Taylor Not Found Yes
Tazewell 1406 0
Tucker 106 54 Yes
Tyler 125 880 Yes
Upshur 306 701 Yes
Warren 675 3
Warwick Not Found
Washington 1907 20
Wayne 204 427 Yes
Webster 129 26 Yes
Westmoreland 667 1
Wetzel 180 790 Yes
Wirt 150 507 Yes
Wise 419 38
Wood 257 1995 Yes
Wyoming 109 105 Yes
Wythe 1168 1
York Not Found
Total 114,260 20,352
Army 10363 38
Total 124,896 20,390

220 posted on 06/19/2013 5:32:28 AM PDT by central_va (I won't be reconstructed and I do not give a damn.)
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To: BroJoeK

I’m not a Civil War scholar by any means, more of an enthusiastic amateur who knows more about it than the average bear, but I’ve never heard the bit about Lee really going after Harrisburg and specifically the rail lines for use as a bargaining chip. Any further information you have on that - detailed articles you can point me to etc, would really be appreciated.

Popular wisdom on the Pennsylvania Campaign has Lee going there to feed and supply his forces, getting them out of Virginia and giving the Shennadoah Valley a respite. Secondary goal was to try to draw the Army of the Potomac into a decisive battle on Lee’s terms.

Something that I’ve seen overlooked in discussions about Gettysburg is that while Meade couldn’t allow Lee to get behind him and between him and Washington, Lee was in a similar position. Lee needed to prevent Meade (or, rather, the Army of the Potomac) from getting between him and Cashtown Gap - his escape route to VA if things went bad.

It seems to me that if Lee was really going for Harrisburg he would have gone straight for Harrisburg instead of fanning his army out across a wide arc to the a Southeast like he did.


222 posted on 06/19/2013 6:57:56 AM PDT by tanknetter
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