Five unanswered questions about the NSA’s surveillance programs

The Hill ^ | July 7, 2013 | Brendan Sasso

[jazusamo]

Of course DNI Clapper is already an admitted liar, his assurances mean nothing.

[Secret Agent Man]

FISA - Unconstitutional court.

Are we now going to have coyote courts for coyotes?

Coyotes: your honor, we need to raid this henhouse tonight.

Coyote court: I’ll grant that. Classify top secret so the chickens don’t find out until it’s too late.

What other secret courts exist? How do we know they don’t exist?

[jazusamo]

What other secret courts exist? How do we know they don’t exist?

Great point and we don't know.

[DUMBGRUNT]

“We should not have secret law in a democracy.”

Sounds like double secret probation.

With thousands of pages of laws, rules, codes... Many are secret or very near secret.

[SpaceBar]

The heads of the executive, legislative, and judicial branches need to answer under oath, under pain of perjury, subject to cross examination, and without legal immunity, exactly what specific rights do American citizens currently posses under existing law. And since there is no legal authority to actually do this, we will never know.

[jazusamo]

Please bump the Freepathon or click above and donate or become a monthly donor!

[Secret Agent Man]

I mean we have a freaking unconstitutional shadow government under the COG plans when our leaders are tucked away under Mount Weather, how many other secret courts, secret governments, secret unconstitutional things are going on now?

How about 15,000 Russian soldiers on US soil to “help in emergencies” bs? Those weren’t medics and doctors.

[Bobalu]

Here is something to keep in mind.

They have decided that collecting all data is just fine..as long as you don’t look at it until you get authorization.

There is something else they have almost certainly decided is acceptable. That it’s alright to compromise hardware as long as you don’t exploit the weaknesses unless authorized.

Pretty sobering thought isn’t it!?

NSA runs a state of the art chip fab. They’re not churning out 555 timer chips in there.

For you IT guys out there, imagine you had a chip fab and the means to place your doctored silicon onto hardware.. Just what would you chip to get the best bang for the buck?
I can think of several items that are ripe for chipping.... I bet I have it about right... I bet the hardware is compromised.

[Vendome]

According to the DNI, the NSA only accesses those online records if there is a “foreign intelligence purpose” and the target is “reasonably believed” to be outside of the U.S. The program is authorized by Section 702 of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act, and the searches require approval by a secret FISA court.

Hey, KGB wannabe.  The term "reasonable" is an invention for you to create new state powers where none exist and violate those which are enumerated!

The term you must apply is "Probable Cause"

the distinction is quite marked, not even subtle.

With reasonable cause one can conclude that It's Possible to conclude a thing or condition exists.

Under Probable Cause the conclusion leads one to believe by preponderance of facts that a thing or condition must be located in a specific place.

We did away with Witch Hunts centuries ago and we can do away with FISA, returning Americans God given and sacrosanct rights to privacy.

[jazusamo]

It is absolutely sobering, big brother has all our info recorded and can access it through a secret court whenever they feel like doing so.

[Vendome]

1. What other data is being collected under the Patriot Act? Name it.  Just watch any crime show and you get the idea.  NCIS is a good example.

2. How broad are the programs? Well, if anyone and everyone's information is scooped up and never discarded or rarely, you tell me.

3. What’s the legal rationale? Well, the STAR Chamber or FISA is the only one who could shed light on this but, that doesn't seem likely.  It would run counter to Patriot Acts 1 & II.  What is beyond the pale is to have a super secret court that can shut you down from communication anything about a Patriot Act action, including to your attorney.  It's even more galling to know FISA is merely a rubber stamp bureaucracy but, is not responsible for seeing through the process of an investigation up to and including prosecution.

Further, I object to their use of "reasonable cause" when the 4th amendment calls for "probable cause"

4. Is the NSA still collecting email records?

Is that a trick question?  Like Carnivore before PRISM, when one program "supposedly" ends another is started.  Likely because the ability to collect information at ever great speed and volume becomes more capable.  So yeah, they are still collecting.

5. Are there other programs that we don’t know about?

Sure.  Of the many programs out there we have learned about over the years there would be others we don't know about and will continue until we figure out how to end this encroachment on freedeoms that asks only "If you don't have anything to hide, then what's the big deal?".

[cripplecreek]

6. What does this cost?

[jazusamo]

Yep, that new NSA complex in Utah is tagged at $1.2 billion and that’s just a drop in the bucket. I will run into many many billions.

[jazusamo]

Bump.

[cripplecreek]

Booz Allen the company that Ed Snowden worked for made nearly $6 billion in government contracts. Also kind of funny that no one notices that James Clapper was once an executive with Booz Allen.

[palmer]

7. How useful is it?

We need to start by keeping the terrorists out. But given that some are already here, the best way to stop them is targeted investigations. The only possible argument for a priori collection is to look them up once they are targeted. But that minor amount of value (compared to intensive collection with ordinary court ordered warrants) does not justify the potential for abuse.

The idea that they can fish through this stuff to find terrorists is ludicrous and gets more ludicrous the more data they add. The basic problem is that trillions of records from ordinary Americans requires a trillions time trillions search algorithm to find anything.

[jazusamo]

Here’s a post to me on a thread I posted regarding Clapper from someone who was in a position to know and I believe every word:

To: jazusamo

As a former (several rungs down the chain) legal advisor of then-General Clapper, I can say he rarely listened to his lawyers then, either. He’s gotta be really scared for his political future at this point - that’s the only thing that seems to motivate him.

13 posted on Tuesday, July 02, 2013 2:08:25 PM by jagusafr

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/3038341/posts?page=13#13

[cripplecreek]

Yup. Secure the border and drop the pro muslim immigration policies. I’ll take care of my own security beyond that.

[cripplecreek]

Investigate Booz Allen Hamilton, not Edward Snowden

Clapper worked as vice-president at Booz Allen from 1997 to 1998, while Snowden did a three-month stint at their offices in Hawaii in spring 2013 as a low-level contract employee. Both worked on intelligence contracts, which are estimated to make up almost a quarter of the company's $5.86bn in annual income.

[Travis McGee]

Welcome to the USSA, Comrades.

A 6-minute YouTube video by yours truly and Mark P. Ferri, about the loss of freedom in America.