Soldier's war zone murder conviction could ripple through ranks

The Fayetteville Observer ^ | August 3, 2013 | Paul Woolverton and Michael Futch

[DJ Taylor]

As the family of Army 1st Lt. Clint Lorance reeled Friday over his convictions for the deaths of two Afghan nationals, observers said it's rare to see military officers prosecuted for combat-zone killings.

Some said the Lorance case shows why U.S. forces must adhere to strict rules of engagement when deciding whether to fire their weapons.

Lorance, a 28-year-old 82nd Airborne Division officer, was convicted at Fort Bragg on Thursday of murder for ordering soldiers under his command to shoot three Afghans who were riding a motorcycle. Two were killed, the third ran away.

No weapons or equipment that insurgents typically carry, such as two-way radios, were found on the bodies.

The conviction brought to mind the court-martial of an Army lieutenant in 1971 for the My Lai massacre of 1968. U.S. soldiers killed more than 300 residents in a Vietnamese village. The lieutenant was convicted and sentenced to life. He ultimately served several months in prison and several years of house arrest.

Lorance's jury sentenced him to 20 years in prison for the killings, which occurred in July 2012.

[DJ Taylor]

As this Court Martial board was made up of officers who knew that a finding of "Not Guilty" would damage their careers, do you really think this soldier received a fair trail?

[FlingWingFlyer]

“Charging a man with murder in this place was like handing out speeding tickets at the Indy 500.” - Captain Willard

[saganite]

I guess the Army doesn’t believe in stand your ground. Retreat is advised until you can positively affirm the enemies intent. It’s kind of a French thing.

[Flintlock]

This reeks.
To all servicemen: GET OUT. GET OUT NOW!!!!

All brass are now ANTI-MILITARY. I’m talking about the SERVING OFFICERS.

[only1percent]

A Court Martial of an Army O-2 is going to be filled with O-3s and O-4s with plenty of time in the sandbox, good civilian options and a very skeptical view of uniformed careers given reduced operating tempo and likely deep Defense budget cuts. That they’d send a brother officer to prison for 20 years on no good evidence to increase their odds of getting a star from 1% to 1.5% is pretty unlikely.

Also, it sounds like there’s a lot more to it than violating ROE: “In addition to murder, the military jury convicted Lorance of threatening to kill local villagers, ordering a soldier to shoot toward villagers to harass them, asking a soldier to file a false report saying that villagers shot at the outpost, and obstruction of justice for efforts to cover up the circumstances of the two homicides.”

[The Sons of Liberty]

What is needed is a new Commander in Chief.

[ghostrider]

And yet the self confessed Muslim Jihad Terrorist US Army Major, who murdered folks at Ft Bliss, still retains his rank and protection from the impostor Muslim in the White House.

[sport]

It was supposed to send a message.

[DJ Taylor]

"Also, it sounds like there’s a lot more to it than violating ROE: “In addition to murder, the military jury convicted Lorance of threatening to kill local villagers, ordering a soldier to shoot toward villagers to harass them, asking a soldier to file a false report saying that villagers shot at the outpost, and obstruction of justice for efforts to cover up the circumstances of the two homicides.”

That's called "shot gunning" charges in the hopes that at least one of them will stick. If the evidence behind these additional charges is as flimsy as the violation of ROE evidence, then, in my opinion, there was very little justice meted out by this board.

[Shimmer1]

Yeah but....he’s MUSLIM. You know what I mean. We all do.

[The Working Man]

A Court Martial of an Army O-2 is going to be filled with O-3s and O-4s with plenty of time in the sandbox, good civilian options and a very skeptical view of uniformed careers given reduced operating tempo and likely deep Defense budget cuts.

---

When I was in a court-martial proceeding as a witness The court was composed of an 0-6 and two 0-5’s. And this was for a two gold-bricking E-2’s who missed movement as well as several other things done while AWOL.

Mind you I was Coast Guard and we are talking about the 1970’s. But still I do have to wonder about your statement.

[The Working Man]

It was supposed to send a message.

---

Yeah have JAG on speed-dial before any and all actions for permission to continue.

[Future Snake Eater]

As this Court Martial board was made up of officers who knew that a finding of "Not Guilty" would damage their careers, do you really think this soldier received a fair trail?

You're assuming a lot in that statement.

No facts are presented in the article other than "he ordered two unarmed civilians killed."

I would say the sentence seems pretty damned harsh, but, again, I don't know the facts of the case.

[Venturer]

Some said the Lorance case shows why U.S. forces must adhere to strict rules of engagement when deciding whether to fire their weapons
..........................................................
It show me that the military is not willing to back it’s officers.

Our military is on it’s way downhill, and cases like this are pushing it along.

My advice to young men is Do not join the military.
Let the queers and Women have it.
That is the military this Administration wants.

[DJ Taylor]

"You're assuming a lot in that statement."

I assumed nothing. My opinions are based on experiences gained in a thirty-year Army career.

[Future Snake Eater]

So your 30 years of experience says those officers on the jury will have negative career repercussions if they vote "not guilty"?

[Mark17]

And yet the self confessed Muslim Jihad Terrorist US Army Major, who murdered folks at Ft Bliss, still retains his rank and protection from the impostor Muslim in the White House.

It sucks, even though it was Ft Hood. Of course I don't know all the facts, but it seems to show the government's love for Islam. It looks to me like Islam is the darling religion of the US government. I am retired Air Force, but I have told my son not to go into the military at all.

[yldstrk]

believe me, all of them have had annual classes on “watch what you do, expect to be second guessed, the media has changed the circumstances, here are the rules from the Geneva and Hague conventions”. I have taught hundreds of same

so acting like a moron depraved lunatic killer is not an option

[Future Snake Eater]

Of course I don't know all the facts, but it seems to show the government's love for Islam.

I wouldn't say that (though that problem does exist). Hassan made a mockery of the military justice system and the military justice system was all too willing to comply. Just look at how much time was wasted with Hassan's stupid haji beard. It was absolutely pathetic.

[publius911]

It was supposed to send a message.
Yeah have JAG on speed-dial before any and all actions for permission to continue.

I got the message loud and clear decades ago.
The message is, the military is now all about posturing, and the rules of engagement favor the enemy. No culture, no civilization can survive under those circumstances. I can't help wondering how many such cultures simply vanished permanently without a trace.

The solution for me, or any of my children who think to ask, is become a permanent conscientious objector and choose jail time over any suggestion that the rules of engagement should ever under any circumstances.

I may never see it in my lifetime, but there is no doubt in my mind that, if ever the USA is invaded, anyone who suggests ROEs similar to the current ones, will be shot on the spot, together with the chain of command all the way to the top.

Not a new debate...

"That state which separates its warriors from its scholars will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting done by fools" Thucydides - The Peloponisia