[jodyel]

Hiya fhc,

I think we have different ideas of what hell is....I don’t subscribe to “burning.” I believe Hell is separation from God.

Why would the Pharisees reject Jesus when all thru the Old Testament God is clearly telling them He is bringing them a savior from their people that is both man and God? Any Pharisee who denied Christ is now in Hell.

The Jewish people are different in the sense they were chosen by God to represent Him on earth to all peoples before Jesus was born, and they failed miserably. So He set them aside for an appointed time and turned His attention to the Gentiles.

Not necessarily a remnant...that is what is stated in the first chapter of Romans. I think the disagreement comes in the use of the word “all.” Might help to go back to the original Greek and Hebrew to see how that passage is worded there, but that is well beyond me. :)

Where does it say in Scripture that a “sincerely repentant person and one who does all reasonably possible to atone for, correct his transgressions, is forgiven” outside of placing his faith in Jesus Christ? This sounds to me like salvation thru works.

Speaking against Jesus is not what condemned the Pharisees to hell. Not recognizing their need for a savior to reconcile them to God and accepting Jesus as that savior, before they died, is what condemned them to hell.

I believe Scripture is very clear regarding hell and who will go there and who is there now. Anyone outside the saving grace of Jesus. As real and serious as hell is, people need to be sure and not just guess or think they know. Grab a bible and read up...teach yourself and don’t depend on others words or teaching. Be a Berean and search the Scriptures diligently.

Reckon we have thoroughly hijacked this thread? LOL

Best,
jodyel

[faithhopecharity]

Hi!
Ok, here are some responses to your note ...

YOURS:
I think we have different ideas of what hell is....I don’t subscribe to “burning.” I believe Hell is separation from God.
ME:
I agree, and apologize for just assuming you might subscribe to the common “burning” idea. There is scriptural reason for the burning idea, however, Matthew 18:9 comes to mind and I believe there are more...)

YOURS:
Why would the Pharisees reject Jesus when all thru the Old Testament God is clearly telling them He is bringing them a savior from their people that is both man and God? Any Pharisee who denied Christ is now in Hell.
ME:
I do not find any such “clear telling...He is bringing them a savior...that is both man and God.” Can you cite several clear verses or passages that would have told them that? I can’t, and I therefore do not believe it is right to hold them responsible for having such advance information, at least not in such a precise, clear manner. Redemption was promised several times, whether national redemption or spiritual or whatever. So we have those passages. I do not recall passages promising a savior that would be both man and God, however (unless we wish to accept the common interpretation of Isaiah’s “suffering servant” ... but that’s not entirely clear and at any event it is just one passage... )

YOU:
The Jewish people are different in the sense they were chosen by God to represent Him on earth to all peoples before Jesus was born, and they failed miserably. So He set them aside for an appointed time and turned His attention to the Gentiles.
ME:
They failed miserably, eh? They failed many times, that is true, but they always, sometimes with His help, bounced back.... and they were still very much in there ... affirming the One True God to the rest of their world, indeed most of St Paul’s travels were to Jewish synagogues that had many pagan “hangers-on” or what scholars call “God-fearers” ... people who came to the Jews to learn about God. We even have archeological inscriptions showing that these gentiles contributed to the synagogue financially (if you visit many synagogues and churches today you can see similar “we thank our contributors” plaques on the walls....). Finally, to say that the Jews “failed miserably” when Jesus came to the Jewish people and the Jewish people provided all of Jesus’ early followers, including his Apostles (and yes I am including Luke albeit there is some early church teaching otherwise), is a bit one-sided at best.
The Jews kept records of their failings over the centuries so that their children, and all Jews and Christians today, can learn from their mistakes, and know that God keeps His word even when his little Created Critters do not succeed. The fact that Christians (and Jews) today still look forward to more Good News to come ... call it rapture, Heaven, Messiah, New Jerusalem, next dispensation, or whatever .... as Paul said, “we live for hope” .... the fact that we have this hope yet today is due to all those old Jews keeping this hope alive. You will note that the Jews always found their way back to God even when they strayed. The story of the early Jews is very much our story today, at least insofar as so many people have strayed, miserably, today... and insofar as we can hope (and pray) that they may yet find their way back to God. St. Paul points out so clearly that God remains faithful to the Jews, and Jesus Himself so eloquently forgave his crucifiers. The last word we have on the subject is this forgiveness by Jesus of the human failings or shortcomings Jesus experienced at Calvary. Jesus did not abandon or condemn His Jewish people, indeed we have here the clearest possible statement of just the opposite, forgiveness, a forgiveness that even extended to Jesus’ Roman murderers and a forgiveness that cannot possibly be reconciled with, or support, any sort of replacement theology. As St. Paul then said, “all Israel will be saved”...and Paul understood all the human failings in people, including in himself and in his Jewish people, as well as anybody (outside of Jesus, of course) possibly could. God keeps His word, and any concepts of justice are always tempered with His mercy. “God is Love,” as St John explained, and if Jesus’ ministry stood for anything it is this love, implemented largely through His forgiveness and continuing redemption for His people (Jews and Christians alike).

YOURS:
Not necessarily a remnant...that is what is stated in the first chapter of Romans. I think the disagreement comes in the use of the word “all.” Might help to go back to the original Greek and Hebrew to see how that passage is worded there, but that is well beyond me. :)
ME:
It is no problem to check the Greek. Paul used the Greek word for “all” in describing which Jews will be saved. It is right there in Romans 11:26. You can check it with a Strong’s concordance, any respectable Bible commentary, or using a scholarly computer program such as Bible Works.

YOURS:
Where does it say in Scripture that a “sincerely repentant person and one who does all reasonably possible to atone for, correct his transgressions, is forgiven” outside of placing his faith in Jesus Christ? This sounds to me like salvation thru works.
ME:
Oh my, am I really ready for the “salvation through works” disputation? Ha!
At any event,
you asked for scriptural citations. The concept of repentance and then doing justly as being what God wants for His forgiveness or salvation, is replete in Scripture.
For instance, Ezekiel 18:27, “When the wicked man turns away from his wickedness that he has committed, and does that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive.” Or Malachi 3:7, “Return to Me and I shall return to you (sayeth God)...” See also Ezekiel 33.11,19; Jeremiah 36:3, Hosea 14:3, and more.

YOURS:
Speaking against Jesus is not what condemned the Pharisees to hell. Not recognizing their need for a savior to reconcile them to God and accepting Jesus as that savior, before they died, is what condemned them to hell.
ME:
Well, of course I do not believe the Pharisees were condemned to Hell, as Jesus himself forgave his killers right at Calvary (and whatever involvement any Pharisee may have had with Jesus it was never worse than the involvement of those persons that crucified Him). And as Jesus also said, “Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven men. 32 Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.”
(Gospel of Matthew). Speaking against a person is always worse than merely not accepting what he has to say. Yet, speaking outright against Jesus was something Jesus said will be forgiven a man. Thus, Jesus provided explicit forgiveness, and certainly no condemnation whatsoever, for the very transgression you cite.
(Keep in mind also that the Pharisees, as Jews, were already in “salvational” Covenant with God.)

YOURS:
I believe Scripture is very clear regarding hell and who will go there and who is there now. Anyone outside the saving grace of Jesus. As real and serious as hell is, people need to be sure and not just guess or think they know. Grab a bible and read up...teach yourself and don’t depend on others words or teaching. Be a Berean and search the Scriptures diligently.
ME:
I do not claim to know it all. I make mistakes too.
But I do read the Scriptures. I find Hell to be a serious matter, I just don’t know as much about it (particularly, I do not know who may be resident therein). That God provides for our salvation we can agree on. Beyond that point, we may yet not fully agree on just how this salvational calculus all works, or as regards its possible extent in the world. One concept that some Church theologians have advanced is the idea that this salvation may extend beyond the “obvious” and may not even be fully perceived by some of those so benefited or blessed by it.
I have some quibbles with parts of this, but you can read up on it (and see if any of this rings true in light of your understanding of Scripture), perhaps by looking at such things as Karl Rahner’s “anonymous Christian,” “baptism of desire,”virtuous pagan,” and “Dominus Iesus,” particularly sections I,8; III,14; and VI,21. Again, I do not offer these as any “new gospel” but rather just as windows a person can look through to see whether some of this interpretation makes sense.

YOURS:
Reckon we have thoroughly hijacked this thread? LOL
ME:
Yup!
Ecclesiastes 1:18 and 12:12 to you!
Nlessings,
fhc

Best,