Posted on 10/31/2013 7:51:45 AM PDT by ConservativeDude
I've followed Barton for quite a while and have never heard him say this; please cite your source, preferably with a link.
And Madam Theophilus has been debunked.
No. The History News Network is part of George Mason University. See: http://hnn.us/article/820
First of all, both Throckmorton and Coulter are professors at Grove City College, one of only two universities in the US that do not receive federal funding. Grove City is known for its conservative heritage and especially for being one of very few undergrad institutes that teach free market economics.
Also just as a way of background, I have a degree in history from Asbury College. My advising professor did his grad work under Grove City’s premier conservative history professor, Clarence Carson. He’s not known very well today, but just Google his name. In the 70’s I also worked on the Congressional staff of one of the top conservative members of the House.
My concern about David Barton is not his main thesis which is that America founded as a Christian nation. I am terribly concerned about the way Mr. Barton attempts to prove that point. Due to his many historical errors, he undermines his whole message to those who actually have studied history and know the primary sources. As Mr. Barton was never trained in history (he has a degree from Oral Roberts in Christian Education), he makes very basic errors as he attempts to prove his message. This is what makes him so dangerous to the whole Christian conservative movement. His message may be right, but his defense is faulty. Going out into public arena by running for office will, in the end, totally destroy his work, as well as lose the seat for the Democrats should he be nominated as the Republican runner.
http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2012/08/08/david-bartons-errors/
David Barton’s Errors by Greg Fraser
A Christian scholar on John Locke reflects on David Barton’s presentation of Locke.
http://www.worldmag.com/2013/02/jefferson_and_christianity
Jefferson and Christianity by Dr. Greg Frazer
Professor of Political Science at Master’s College, one of the dozen colleges that David Barton says, “Gets it right.”
Getting Jefferson Right by Throckmorton and Coulter
Only $5 on kindle. Read the opposing view before leaping on the Barton bandwagon. It’s healthy to do a bit of research before having a knee jerk reaction.
That’s actually what I did when the whole controversy began. Our church showed Barton’s series on American history in adult Sunday School. Some of the obvious errors in the series really shocked me as I had heard so much positive about him. Then I started to do my own research and reluctantly had to conclude the critics were correct, even though I agreed with Barton’s main thesis.
You obviously antagonistic to Barton, and there are so glaring errors with your other new posts as well; but I will have to come back and argue those points this afternoon. Hopefully, you will prove me wrong by then that you only wish harm on Barton's reputation by then.
I’m not sure what you mean by limited sourcing.
Throckmorton and Coulter’s book deals with specific historical accounts in David Barton’s book on Jefferson. The citations are related to those accounts, so naturally they would be “limited” to those specific narratives.
I also do not know what you mean by, “elite?” I was just attempting to show these men are not liberals. They teach at one of the top conservative colleges in the country. Conservatives have been known to have articles published at Salon.com so just saying they have an article on the site does not prove anything about their political affiliations.
If you look through this thread, you’ll also see I posted an essay by a professor from Master’s College critical of David Barton. Master’s College is one of the schools David Barton claims, “gets it right.”
Glen Meakem’s interview with Throckmorton and Coulter where they discuss their backgrounds and how they came to write their book.
This does not refute anything I posted before about them; there are many professors with a wrong view that the Separation Of Church and State (SOCS) is what the Founding Fathers wanted - and the evidence shows that Throckmorton and Coulter are two of them! Throckmorton especially relishes the praise given to him by the Left. This also shows what their agenda is.
“Also just as a way of background, I have a degree in history from Asbury College. My advising professor did his grad work under Grove City’s premier conservative history professor, Clarence Carson. He’s not known very well today, but just Google his name. In the 70’s I also worked on the Congressional staff of one of the top conservative members of the House.”
Fantastic, you are educated, as am I; but from where does your wisdom come? Is it wise to bring accusations from accusers that have been proven to be antagonistic to the Church being involved in politics, and then not bring in any evidence that you believe to be in the contrary? You leave out quite a bit of information in the defense of the Church.
“If you look through this thread, you’ll also see I posted an essay by a professor from Master’s College critical of David Barton. Master’s College is one of the schools David Barton claims, “gets it right.”
Does Barton state that this particular professor’s commentary got it right? There are a lot of things I like about Master’s college, and their founder John MacArthur; but there philosophy of their founder (which permeates the college) about the involvement of Christians in politics is wrong – even ant-Biblical! Have you read “Why Government Can't Save You An Alternative To Political Activism” by MacArthur? I have; it is flat out wrong from its premise, let alone its content!
Anyone reading these posts by you and me can see that we can endlessly bring evidence contrary to the other; the readers can read Barton’s “The Jefferson Lies” and the writings of his detractor’s and judge for themselves who has the best citations, original documents, etc. People can and should read the original documents and judge for themselves, and Barton does better than most at letting this happen.
Frankly, we will have to disagree agreeably as to Barton being a candidate in the primary. Of course he will get grilled about what his detractors accuse him of; what Conservative doesn't? I have no doubt Ted Cruz would support him as they are friends, and any friend of Cruz is a friend of mine.
“My concern about David Barton is not his main thesis which is that America founded as a Christian nation.”
Then why bring evidence by supporters of that view? You have not shown any support for the Church’s involvement in politics, quite the contrary; you have brought into the argument supporters of the opposite view. This is actually the crux of our debate; do we as Christian Conservatives agree, as the Supreme Court has judged; that there should be a separation of Church and State? Less this debate be mute, please answer this one question:
Do you believe in the Separation of Church and State?
.
I believe what my church teaches about the separation of Church and State - that these are two of the three institutions God has ordained for men so there is peace and good order in society (the third is the family). Each functions under God, accountable to Him, but each has its separate sphere of rule which may not be abrogated or usurped by the others.
A short summary of this viewpoint is found in chapter 23 of the Westminster Confession of Faith, American 1788 edition.
Now this is interesting; and I do agree with it. I have read chapter 23 of the Westminster Confession of Faith, including the appendix of 1788. Now this is what the Founders intended our governments to be! I especially like the statement:
"And, as Jesus Christ hath appointed a regular government and discipline in his church, no law of any commonwealth should interfere with, let, or hinder, the due exercise thereof, among the voluntary members of any denomination of Christians, according to their own profession and belief."
What is so often forgotten is the "Free Exercise" clause of our Constitution - which enables man to speak out about the Bible in our schools and any government institution, and in which the appendix so 1788 is so similar to.
http://www.bible-researcher.com/wescontext.html
http://www.bible-researcher.com/wescoappb.html
I only wish that there was evidence that the detractors of Barton believed this, thus eliminating the doubt of bigotry against Barton. Maybe you can provide such evidence?
You are combining two separate issues. You asked me my view of separation of church and state and I gave it.
Throckmorton’s and Coulter’s view on this issue is not germane to the question of the accuracy of Barton’s historical presentation of Jefferson. I haven’t read their book in awhile, but I do not remember the question of separation of church and state even an issue in the book.
Getting Jefferson Right deals with the specific historical sources that Barton cites to prove his belief that Jefferson was a Christian and did not hold to what we would view today as questionable racial ideas. Throckmorton and Coulter have shown that he makes serious errors in the way he handles this material. I believe they have also shown Barton also uses documents selectively, leaving out portions of quotes that will disprove his point.
Again, this proves the point I have been trying to make. You cannot support a thesis with false or misleading supporting materials. It will eventually undermine your thesis. In his zeal to prove the relationship between Christianity and our nation’s founding, David Barton has crossed the line in this regard. I believe his main thesis can be successfully challenged by his opponents because he has not been careful or honest with the historic sources.
Jefferson was never thought to be a Christian - meaning in a Biblical sense- by his own contemporaries. He was an ardent follower of Joseph Priestly, and along with John Adams, firmly held that the deity of Christ was a doctrine added later to the Bible and was not the belief of the original lst century Christians. Barton’s repeated claim they were not deists is beside the point. They were Unitarians. While both Adams and Jefferson had high humanistic moral ideals, and held to what we would call conservative political ideas today, neither were Christians in the true sense of the word. That is: that Jesus Christ was God incarnate sent to redeem His people from their sins.
P.S.
This essay might be helpful background material on Joseph Priestley.
FROM LOWER CRITICISM TO HIGHER CRITICISM by Dr. Ted Letis
http://depts.drew.edu/jhc/LetisPriestley.pdf
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