Population and the Age of the Earth

CreationMoments ^ | n.d. | CreationMoments et al

[jimmyray]

QUOTE: "None of the above really. It's in the scriptures. Haven't you read them for yourself, or are you just following some bible thumper? Science just confirms the bible that there was a previous earth age..."

Put your scripture where your argument is. I would LOVE for you to present a reference for the assertion of a "previous earth age". You'll have to get into novel interpretations of certain hebrew words, and read into the scriptures things it does not say. But please, educate me with scripture.

Yes, I have read the scripture a great deal, and invested a great deal of time in persoanl study. I really don't follow anyone. Websters defines a Bible-Thumper as "an overzealous advocate of Christian fundamentalism". Not sure if I am overzealous, but I do take the Bible at face value, and assume the plain reading of the text is what is means.

For example, Exodus 20:11 (KJV) plainly states "For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day..." Thus, the plain meaning is that God made everything in 6 literal days, rested on the seventh, and this is the pattern for our 7 day week. I reckon that is fundamental.

[jimmyray]

QUOTE:"It seems to me FWIW that the YEC timetable must be way off, if it cannot account for the "extantness" of the Lascaux artist(s), who must have been "human.""

Or, the dating of the Lascaux cave paintings is incorrect.

[TXnMA]

"It seems to me FWIW that the YEC timetable must be way off, if it cannot account for the "extantness" of the Lascaux artist(s), who must have been "human.""

Also, the entire premise of this article and its poster is bogus if it cannot account for the astounding worldwide racial diversity found in today's populace.

Starting with incestuous inbreeding between eight related people (fewer, if they were not adulterous) and beginning after the iron age (viz Tubalcain) explain, O enlightened YECsters, our world's current diverse population mix.

[blackpacific]

Narrow is the gate that leads to salvation, and few who find it.

[A child of Yah]

Hey there “jimmyray”

Last January 2013, I presented this comment to another poster about Genesis in regards to the “earth age”.

My problem was that I just couldn’t seem to grasp even the first Book of the Bible.
It really bothered me, so many, many years later I heard a Pastor talking about this Book of Genesis, and it all started to make sense then about the 3 earth ages.

One had already taken place, the second one we are in now, and the third age is yet to come when our LORD returns.

Now these 3 earth ages are not in regards to Noah’s flood.

So, I will share again the comment I presented to another poster from last January 2013.

Here’s the comment:

Hi there... I know we weren’t conversing but I wanted to ask you about Genesis 1:2.

And the earth (776) was (1961) without form (8414), and void (922); and darkness (2822) was upon the face (6440) of the deep (8415).

What’s your opinion on that Strongs #1961 and its true meaning?
From what I gathered, it should be -— “became”, and not “was”.

Meaning: And the earth “became” without form, and void.
Meaning: That “eon” or “earth age” became without form and void, as if in a destruction of those things that were already in existence. Not the earths destruction, but all the inhabitants destroyed in that “eon/earth age”. Just curious if you see that possibility???
******* (end comment) *******

So, “jimmyray”, do you think there might have been a earth age before the one we are in now?

Also, I’m not thinking along the lines of there were human beings here, but more along the line of that each and every one of us were in “spiritual angelic bodies” dwelling on the earth.

There’s a passage in the Gospels about giving and taking of marriage, and the response is that there will be none because we will be like the angels. I do think we will return to our previous estate in the next earth age when our LORD returns, as we were before we became flesh.

There are some studies out there about the “katabole”, meaning the foundation being overthrown, destroyed, and ruined. It’s a Greek word that you could look into and see.

I’m sure you’ve read passages about how some were told that they were known before they were knitted in their mothers womb, and how our Heavenly Father knew them before they were even born. I believe that they were known from the first earth age when we were all in spiritual bodies.

I believe also that because of satans rebellion, that our Heavenly Father showed mercy on us in that earth age, and instead of just total destruction, we were allowed to all be born into flesh bodies where we will have the opportunity to choose the path of life, or the path of death.

I don’t mean to overwhelm you with all this, but if you could just look into it, and then give me your opinion, it would be greatly appreciated. Thanks “jimmyray”, and take good care too.

[Benito Cereno]

I’m curious. If dinos and humans have existed for this same 6,000 year time period, where are all the fossilized humans?

[fwdude]

Fossilized in animals = mummified in humans.

[betty boop]

Or, the dating of the Lascaux cave paintings is incorrect.

Well, it is inexact. I've seen a range of dates, from 26,000 to 20,000 B.C. I've even seen one estimate of 40,000 B.C.

[albionin]

The author of this article is failing to recognize a crucial point, which totally falsifies his theory of what the population would be if the 2 million year figure is correct. He is forgetting that farming didn’t start until about 12,000 years ago and before that man was a hunter gatherer. Take away farming and animal husbandry and large scale fishing and what would the population be today. Hell, take away the internal combustion engine and billions of people would die within a year. Imagine today’s population living by hunting and gathering and you’ll see that his “theory” is nonsense. It was farming and domestication of animals that allowed the population to start to grow, so it is entirely plausible that the population remained low for almost all of those 2 million years and then ballooned after farming was invented. Assuming a steady growth rate over the 2 million years is absurd.

[fwdude]

So, first off, let’s establish that you don’t believe the Bible, correct?

I don’t mean that as any kind of condemnation for purposes of this discussion, but it’s important to establish.

[albionin]

No I don’t.

[albionin]

Whether or not I do is irrelevant. The guy who wrote the article is making unreasonable assumptions about early Human population growth and I’m pointing that out. It is a straw man. The actual evidence of genetics and anthropology points to a very different type of population growth.

[jimmyray]

I have looked into the so called "gap" theory you expounded upon, but have several issues with it:
1. It was first proposed in the late 1700's and early 1800's, no record of it before.
2. It was developed to counter the alleged determinations of an "old" earth based on the then nascent science of geology.
3. It violates the plain reading of Exodus 20:11 and 31:17 "...for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested..."
4. It violates the plain meaning of Romans 5:8 "Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned.
5. There is no where in scripture that suggests a pre-creation (day 1) world, it has to be read into texts based on the pretext of the "gap".
6. Genesis 1:3 God created light, and then the cycle of night/day, and then called it "...the first day",informing us there were no days before it.
7. God's pre-knowing us in Psal 139:16-16 finishes with the understanding that God ordained the number of our days before we were formed. There is no hint of our existing before the creation in Gen 1:1 other than in the mind (and books?) of God.

In summary, the gap theory is interesting, but not supported by scripture at all, rather, it is directly contradicted. To adopt this viewpoint in order to compromise with science so-called, one must dimiss, explain away or re-interpret much scripture. Thus, I reject it completely.

[Ha Ha Thats Very Logical]

Fossilized in animals = mummified in humans.

Wrong. Any animal can be mummified, artificially or naturally--I've seen mummified cats in Egypt, and scientists have found at least one mummified mammoth. In mummies, the original tissue is still present.

Generally, fossilization occurs when the original tissue has been replaced by minerals--turned to rock, basically. It is possible for an animal to be naturally mummified and then fossilized, but it's not necessary.

What doesn't exist is a fossilized cat (or human), or a mummified (but not fossilized) dinosaur.

[jimmyray]

QUOTE: "What doesn't exist is a fossilized cat..."

Not sure what you mean. A simple Google search reveals all kinds of fossilized cats, including the popular Sabre Toothed Tiger, Proailurus, Hoplophoneus, Panthera Blytheae, etc.

Incidentally, not all definitions of fossil include the idea on mineral migration into bone. eg Merriam-Webster: "a remnant, impression, or trace of an organism of past geologic ages that has been preserved in the earth's crust".
Dictionary.com defines it as "any remains, impression, or trace of a living thing of a former geologic age, as a skeleton, footprint, etc. "

Semantics, I know.

[A child of Yah]

Thank you for replying “jimmyray”

I didn’t know they called it a “gap theory”.
Every day I’m learning new things and growing with it.

I”m glad you have already looked into it, and are not left unaware of the things I have mentioned.

I guess I’m just one of those little ones running around asking why this, and why that all the time ... smiles

Did you by chance look up that Strongs Exhaustive Concordance #1961/Hebrew word “hayah” - (was or became)?
Concordance #8414/Hebrew word “tohuw” - (formless or laid waste)?
Concordance #922/Hebrew word “bohuw” - (void or wasted)?

I don’t want to be a “sottish” child but in Jeremiah 4:23 it also makes the statement about the void and darkness, just like Genesis 1:2, but even further than that in Jeremiah 4:24 and on it talks about the mountains being moved, and there was no man, and the birds fled.

Jeremiah 4:23
I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form (8414), and void (922); and the heavens, and they had no light.

Jeremiah 4:24
I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly.

Jeremiah 4:25
I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled.

Jeremiah 4:26
I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the LORD, and by his fierce anger.

Jeremiah 4:27
For thus hath the LORD said, The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end.

Do you think this is speaking of the same event like in Genesis 1:2?

It seems so similar, yet with more information about mountains, man, and birds, then it’s all being made desolate.

Anyhoo... just trying to put it all together in my simple little mind. If I had a Pastor I could ask these things, but I don’t.

I read that Psalms 139:15-16 you gave:
My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth. Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them.

Is that along the same line as mentioned in Jeremiah 1:5?
Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

I haven’t did a deeper study on these things, like foreknown and predestination and such. I’ve been asleep for so long that it seems like I’m doing overtime to catch up now ... sighs.

Oh well ... I’m sure I’ve done gone and overloaded your donkey cart again with all my prodding and poking. Please be patient with me in my learning process. I’m most sure our Heavenly Father looks down and smiles at us studying His Word so deeply and intently while we help one another.

Thank you again “jimmyray”.
You can take your time in getting back with me too if you like. I’ll keep checking back now and then to see, and if you don’t wish to continue any further either, I can understand that too.

I’ve been known to wear out my welcome now and then ... smiles and thanks for all that you have given already.

[jimmyray]

I understand the issues with certain words, etc, and other readings like the Jeremiah passage you refered too. A general rule of Hermenuetics, though, is that one does not develop doctrine from unclear or obscure passges that blatantly contradicts doctrine from clear, direct passages.

Before you get wrapped up in the obscure, make sure you feel comforatable dismissing the obvious passages, like the ones I referenced above. For example:

1. I have looked in Hebrew 1961 before, and find it irrelavant. There are several uses of that word in Genesis alone (see HERE) If one has determined the gap theory is valid, one must to hang their hat on a unique interpretation of that word. Try reading the other passages with the novel interpretation of "was" or "became". I am no Hebrew scholar, but this is grasping a straws, IMHO.

2. Jer 4:23-26 has to be read in context with the rest of the chapter, especially vs 27, "this is what the LORD says: "The whole land will be ruined..." Jeremiah is warning Judah and Jersusalem of the utter destruction to come. The land will be laid waste. Reading more into it than that is risky, epsecially if no other prophet expands on it, or it is not explained in the NT.

3. Food for thought: If you place a drop of water in a vacuum with no gravity, it will form a perfect sphere. God placed an Earth sized shape of water in space, and it formed the globe. On the 3rd day, he made dry land appear. A perfect sphere of water is shapeless and void, it has no surface features or distinguishing marks. The evolutionary argument of rocks in space coalescing into spheres is incredulous, in my mind.

4. More food for thought. For us to exist, we have to have 3 things: space, matter, time. Gen 1:1 In the beginning (time) God created the heavens (space) and the Earth (matter).

5. Exodus 20:11 and 31:17 "...for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested..." This passage plainly state that God made evertything in 6 days. There is no suggestion of renewing, remaking, or revealing.

6. It violates the plain meaning of Romans 5:8 "Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned." This suggests that prior to Adam, there was no sin, and there was no death. If the gap theory is true, we have to start putting extra-biblical conditions on this, such as 'The 2nd age earth was perfect until Adam sinned, and the first age earth's destruction is assumed'. There is no Biblical reason to do this, unless one is trying to reconcile an "apparently" old earth with a young earth Biblical account via the gap theory.

Hope this helps. Some good general rules on Bible Study:
1. When the plain sense of Scripture makes common sense, seek no other sense.
2. A passage taken out of context is a pretext.
3. The Bible does not contradict itself. Use the Bible to interpret the Bible.
4. Historical context must be taken into account.

[Alamo-Girl]

Thanks for the ping, dear brother in Christ!

[Gene Eric]

>> “The Bible-believing Christian...”

OT-literalist is prolly a better qualifier.

[A child of Yah]

Thank you “jimmyray”

You’ve spent a lot of time with me explaining all these things, and it is greatly appreciated.

That link you shared is one of my favorites because it is so quick to bring up the concordance and all.

I have one of those big book concordances on my desk here with all kinds of stick-em notes in it, but the website makes it so much easier.

Thanks again for being so patient, kind, and thorough in showing me these things that I need to consider as I advance my personal studies.

I’ve found that most of the people that I have conversed with here on this site have been wonderfully kind and patient towards me, and understanding of most of my inquiries.

You take good care with you and yours “jimmyray”, and may we cross threads again ... smiles