Posted on 02/20/2014 3:05:32 AM PST by iowamark
The Bible tells us that when we see Him (the Risen Ascended Jesus) we shall be like Him. Many passages in scripture tell us that God is 'clothed in righteousness' there is 'no sin in Him'. Early in the Bible it is made plain that humankind were kept from the Tree of Life because that would have had them living forever in their sinful state. God's love is like coals of fire upon the sinful nature. To be alive forever in a state of sinfulness, awash in the Light of God's 'radiance' will be agonizing, a fire not quenched where the worm dieth not.
Put in a more succinct way, God has told us what the Universe will be like in the next phase of His creating. His Light/Love will shine throughout that phase, infused into every nook and cranny. To those who love The Lord and have been delivered from their sinful nature, that phase will be 'Heavenly'. To those who hate The Light, that phase will be agonizing suffering. God will not be the one responsible for that choice, for it is a choice, always a choice.
The caveat to that reality is, it is within God's purview when/where that choice is final. Connect that revelation to the 'observer phenomenon' in Physics, that the observer effects the experiment thus the observer's choice effects the outcome, and you have a modern, rational answer for the fourth reason some reject The Gospel of The Grace of God in Christ.
Grace all the way through. Grace to get saved in the first place, grace to continue on the path, and grace that'll take me home.
Romans 8 says God gives us ALL things...graciously.
32 He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all--how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things?
The spirit is an eternal thing, not subject to the limits time imposes upon physical matter. The spirit will continue to exist even after the new phase is arrived. The new phase is characterized by The Love of God penetrating every nook and cranny of the new Universe. A black hole is a fair analogy for the state of the new Universe, because those glorying in the Light of God will not be subjected to the torment of those in ‘outer darkness’ ...
You are employing a typical spurious liberal and annihilationism hermeneutic, that of determining truth by what to what you believe conforms to your idea of a “loving God.”
And often, when the fate of the lost after the great white throne judgement is called “second death”, perish, destruction, etc. sometimes there is an eternal ring as you mentioned in Mark 9:43-44. But in those cases the eternal fate of the lost is not being described but, rather, the eternal existence of the cause. e.g. the worm not dying and the fire not being quenched merely speaks to the permanence of their destruction. i.e. they ain’t comin’ back.
I can’t speak for Satan and his angels because I don’t know how complete their knowledge of eternity is compared to that of man. Just as man’s punishment for sin is different from that of the animals (they are not held accountable at all), satans punishment may be different from ours. My knowledge of the nuances of who he is and what he knows is limited.
Another important thing to consider is what the bible actually means when it speaks of “forever and ever” and “eternity”. Personally, I see time as a current that flows in an ocean called eternity. I don’t believe it is the passage of time as we know it.
And also, when making the case that the lost will suffer eternally, people use Revelation way too much. As I mentioned in a previous post, Revelation is one of my favorite books of the bible, but I understand that it is steeped in allegory and symbolism. Personally, I think all of that allegory in Revelation regarding forever and ever and eternity is saying that the lost, who are removed from God’s presence, are dead and they will stay dead. After all, a strong theme in the bible is that there is no life outside the presence of God.
And this doesn’t even address that the eternal suffering concept simply does not jibe with the God of the bible as he presents Himself and as he deals with men and sin throughout the bible.
I believe God’s spirit is eternal. I was AG for 18 years and was told that God’s spirit has no beginning and no end, but human spirits have a beginning but no end.
I was told that but never given sound scripture to support it. I eventually abandoned that belief. If we do not accept Christ, I do not believe we have an eternal spirit. In fact, I question whether we have one at all if we are not saved.
And to add to your post, the bible clearly states that the lost will be cast out. It is actually called outer darkness in at least one place.
That fourth reason was a favorite of Christopher Hitchens and now of Dawkins.
See my tagline.
Nice. :-)
We reason on time as flowing, as a linear thing. Time is a volume. Eternal existence is existence not on a linear scale but a volume, always present, never past and never future, always in the present, eternal in existence. Eternity is the volume of Time.
Put in a more modern framework, the 'information' of being is not lost, it resides in the volume of Time. Even Stephen Hawking is beginning to get it, since he has backed off on his earlier notion of a black hole collapsing infinitely, with nothing escaping. That's why I write that a black hole is a fair though not perfect analogy.
If it is not the eternal spirit of a man which is in torment, what is it?
Regarding the rest of your post, it is hypothesis.
BTW, I read the first of your three links in a previous post. You are being too smart by half. I’m considering taking the time to refute the red herrings, straw men and contradictions, but I’ve barely the time to post what I’ve posted so far.
I’ve read my share of incredibly lengthy and sometimes well produced documents both in and out of Christianity that make very clear and well defended points that fall apart when exposed to the other side’s position. I was intimidated by your post until I actually read it.
I will now leave it to you. I am not in the habit of arguing with a closed mind.
That is why the parables use common and plain language (even though Jesus made many of his comments via parables precisely so people would NOT understand).
But He was speaking in plain language and not parables when warning of being cast into the lake of fire in eternal punishment. Moreover, figurative language has its corresponding spiritual equivalent, and any one hearing the Lord warning of being cast into a place "Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched." (Mark 9:48) would understand He was not speaking of just being toasted in the end, but of ongoing punishment in the spiritual realm.
Nor was Lk. 16:19-33 referring to something other than postmortem punishment, as explained here .
I look at the personality of our God all through the bible and how He deals with people that have found themselves at the receiving end of His wrath. The message is always the same: Total destruction. Sometimes entire races. Even threat of them being utterly removed even from the minds of future generations.
But based upon this reasoning then the reward of the righteous is only earthly as well, yet just as God speak of eternal life so He also speaks of eternal destruction.
Just as man’s punishment for sin is different from that of the animals (they are not held accountable at all), satans punishment may be different from ours.
That again would require the elect to also have an eternity like that of animals, while rather than making a difference btwn the punishment of fallen angels and that of the lost, the Lord places them in the same place, and only speaks of eternal torment.
And this doesn’t even address that the eternal suffering concept simply does not jibe with the God of the bible as he presents Himself and as he deals with men and sin throughout the bible.
That is simply not the case but is forcing God to conform to your idea of God, as He both deals with the wicked by slaughtering them in the temporal realm and, as said, being tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: "And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name." (Revelation 14:10,11)
Man it seems you can type fast!
Yes I do. Interestingly, I am on a conference call right now that I’ve not much involvement with, but I forgot to mute and someone said, “who’s typing so fast out there”. ;-)
I will now leave it to you. I am not in the habit of arguing with a closed mind.
Thing is, the more I’ve studied a subject, the more “steadfast” I am in my opinion. But that makes two points. First, it IS just an opinion and, second, it CAN be changed, but the volume and veracity of information needed to do it must compete with that to which I’ve already been exposed that led me to the opinion I have.
Would you say I could have called you “closed minded” regarding this? I don’t.
The thing is, it is not necessary to over-parse words to make the point here because the bible uses plain language and no single scripture makes either of our cases for us. In fact, in my case, much of the information I’m using is what I’ve learned of the personality of God in scriptures that have nothing to do with the eternal fate of the lost.
When you know a person, when something ambiguous is said about something they said or did, you are going to choose the meaning that most fits with their personality as you know them.
That is what I am doing with most of these scriptures. I also have nothing to do with the organization you mentioned in that other post. In fact, I’ve never heard of them.
But He was speaking in plain language and not parables when warning of being cast into the lake of fire in eternal punishment.
I would think I would be burned up rather quickly. Especially if they said the fire was unquenchable and I was aware that often when bodies were burned in my culture the body was not completely consumed because the body itself put out the fire.
And since Jesus talked of the wheat and tares and the tares being burned up in other passages (and in my plain language the analogy clearly means destroyed as most people mean it), that would add to my being convinced that being thrown into the lake of fire was like being dried grass thrown into a furnace. It is utter destruction, with only CO2 blowing in the wind.
But based upon this reasoning then the reward of the righteous is only earthly as well, yet just as God speak of eternal life so He also speaks of eternal destruction.
So we know the condition is eternal, but one is life and one isn’t, while one is destruction and one isn’t. Even when one appeals to the greek lexicon, the meaning is plain, and the meaning of “life” can be clarified by the use of the word “destruction” and vice versa.
I.e. a reasonable person with no agenda would interpret the scripture to mean one will live, and live eternally, while the other will die, never to be resurrected.
But based upon this reasoning then the reward of the righteous is only earthly as well, yet just as God speak of eternal life so He also speaks of eternal destruction.
Meanwhile, the same thing happens with eternity, only the condition is eternal. It never ends. It simply “is”. One lives, one doesn’t. In plain language, the absense of life is either death (which is a temporal event) or, more precisely, non-existence.
And there is no life outside the presence of God.
Do you have Scripture to support that statement?
Genesis 1:26
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.