Skip to comments.Troops left to fend for themselves after Army was warned of flaws in rifle
Posted on 02/21/2014 3:26:13 AM PST by Timber Rattler
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I have always thought that an updated version of the AR-180 (variable gas port/piston; under folding stock; rails for gear; and in .308) would be a far better battle rifle than the M-4 or M-16.
Ahhhhhh, yes, its the Phased Plasma Rifle in the 40 Watt Range...
“The absurd ROEs you had to endure cost more lives than your issued weapons ever did.”
If anything the conflicts (you know, the declared wars we got into) had clear objectives, identifiable enemies, and we defeated them...
Of course Vietnam was a different story altogether, and that was because of the clear political micro-managing of that “war”...Korea was a real cluster because of the U.N. rookie diplomatic/political involvement in most of those decisions...
See the trend???
“There are always weapons platforms that are better suited for certain applications. That, in itself, does not nullify the 5.56mm. There is not one that can do everything.”
That is about the best thing you have said in this back and forth exercise...
One thing is for sure, you get shot, it hurts, if it doesn’t kill you right away...It takes YOU out of the fight in a high percentage of cases...You are just as got with a .22 caliber, as you are with a .30 caliber weapon...
I happen to like the discipline a heavier caliber gives you in combat, it creates better mechanics, patience, accuracy (when you have time to set u the shot), but nothing is ever set in an ideal situation...
A M4/M16 style weapon puts out a lot of puncture devices in a short timeframe...It can certainly take an adversary out...
It also has to do with training, weapon and tactics...Both individual and small unit work...Also know that YOU are not the end to ALL means, you always have something to learn and apply, if you live long enough...
If anything, I have seen some bad habits develop right from the start of some folks military training...It used to be solved by working with consistency with others, but we have such a high turnover rate, declining retention due to a lot of factors including political agendas that ARE effecting how well our forces work at all levels...
And that is most unfortunate...And puts lives at un-necessary risk...
Just my opinion...
I thought it was Nick Rowe but I could be wrong.
Nick (Nicholas) was his middle name.
I stand corrected. I was under the impression that the M14 had a piston type operating system like the AK.
Battle of Sedan, 1870. Auguste-Alexandre Ducrot said of it, "We are in the chamber pot and about to be shat upon." He was right.
Yes, I do, and have commented about it more specifically on other threads.
He went by his middle name which was Nicholas.
Thank you DMZ...much appreciated.
Here’s something strange: The M1 Garand that I have feels like it has LESS recoil, even with the larger 7.62mmx63mm .30-06 round.
The M1A feels a little more “punchy”, even though the 7.62x51 round has less powder. I just attributed that to the placement of the gas tube.
While it’s not a problem, there is definitely a different feel to it.
Both are amazing.
Competition is a good gauge of overall performance but it's not perfect. There are other consideration when one is factoring in real life or death situations. When those in our military that are given the option of choosing their own rifles and literally live and die by their choice of equipment, they choose the AR.
Objectively, it appears that the AR is simply the superior platform.
I love the M1A, it's an iconic rifle. It has a character and presence that the AR simply can't match. That doesn't mean that the AR isn't simply superior. It's like classic cars. The '67 Shelby GT500 is one of my favorite cars, it has a brilliant combination of class and track heritage muscle that simply can't be matched by the 2014 Shelby GT500. That being said the 2014 Shelby GT500 is a superior car by every measure.
Garand recoil is amazingly mild for an ‘06.
That said, I read an account written by a guy who spent one night helping repel a human-wave attack in Korea; afterwards, his right shoulder was numb for days and black-and-blue for weeks.
Rifle stock also badly charred.
“Will they have any problems when the citizens SHOOT BACK???”
Yes and Let them learn the hard way.
“...helping repel a human-wave attack in Korea...”
Just LISTEN to the sound of those words... sends shudders up the spine.
I read Jim Wilson’s “Retreat Hell: We’re Just Attacking In Another Direction” some years ago, about the fighting retreat from the Chosin Reservoir. Unbelievable what those guys went through.
The ChiComs had ZERO respect for the lives of their troops. Makes you wonder why they didn’t just turn their own weapons on the commissars.
I’ve also read/heard stories of Marines firing BARs until the barrels were cherry red, and the wood foregrips were smoking and burning, just from stopping those wave attacks.
RE the Garand: It is a honey to shoot, and to shoot well. It WANTS the 10x ring, every time. Love the sights on it too.
The M4 has a 1 in 60 round (2 mags) for stoppages? I’ve never experienced such a thing. I don’t know anyone who has.
Must have been loading and shooting more or less constantly all night. M1 is a pussycat, but there are limits to anything ...
Yep...I am catching up with that, as best I can...Muh bad...
Army blurbs claim that the 5.56 with a the newer 70 grain bullet is killing people at 5-600 yards with excellent accuracy. But there's a problem. Seems to be that if you miss the kill shot, the wounds can be sustainable and the bad guys keep shooting. If they are behind even minimal cover, the bad guys are pretty safe, especially at longer ranges. That's in the open. In any kind of vegetation, the 5.56 is easily deflected and the M16-M4 series is indeed a bear to keep clean and yes, it is still reported jamming when most needed. And yes, troopers do buy and mount aftermarket parts to improve reliability.
Tests are underway with 6.5 and 6.8 ammo, with very impressive results. BTW, seems Army marksmanship has improved 1000% since the spray and pray tactics of Vietnam. In regard to "light weight:" by the time the Army finished modifying the original M16 to the point where it would sort of work most of the time, its weight difference with an M14 became less obvious. The big weight saving was due to the 5.56's much lighter weight, so a soldier can carry many more rounds. Also, there's no more "spray." Three round burst on auto.
Now if WalMart would only carry stem grenades....
As we get further down the "all-volunteer" road and the people who serve in the armed forces are just "somebody else's children", don't expect any greater efforts to find and field better weapons. They don't care.
Does anyone wonder what kind of idiocy we have entrenched within of acquisition and R&D system?
These are the same kinds of idiots who insist that "all of their computer lethality models show that 5.56mm is more lethal than any other caliber".
Picatinny, Natick, Aberdeen, Benning, and many other defense research and engineering agencies need strong flush and reorganization to come under experienced combat veteran leadership.