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Troops left to fend for themselves after Army was warned of flaws in rifle
The Washington Times ^ | February 19, 2014 | Rowan Scarborough

Posted on 02/21/2014 3:26:13 AM PST by Timber Rattler

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To: Timber Rattler

I have always thought that an updated version of the AR-180 (variable gas port/piston; under folding stock; rails for gear; and in .308) would be a far better battle rifle than the M-4 or M-16.


101 posted on 02/24/2014 6:00:32 PM PST by taxcontrol
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To: JoeProBono

Ahhhhhh, yes, its the Phased Plasma Rifle in the 40 Watt Range...


102 posted on 02/24/2014 7:41:58 PM PST by stevie_d_64 (It's not the color of one's skin that offends people...it's how thin it is.)
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To: edpc; Chainmail

“The absurd ROEs you had to endure cost more lives than your issued weapons ever did.”

Ex-squeeze me???

If anything the conflicts (you know, the declared wars we got into) had clear objectives, identifiable enemies, and we defeated them...

Of course Vietnam was a different story altogether, and that was because of the clear political micro-managing of that “war”...Korea was a real cluster because of the U.N. rookie diplomatic/political involvement in most of those decisions...

See the trend???

“There are always weapons platforms that are better suited for certain applications. That, in itself, does not nullify the 5.56mm. There is not one that can do everything.”

That is about the best thing you have said in this back and forth exercise...

One thing is for sure, you get shot, it hurts, if it doesn’t kill you right away...It takes YOU out of the fight in a high percentage of cases...You are just as got with a .22 caliber, as you are with a .30 caliber weapon...

I happen to like the discipline a heavier caliber gives you in combat, it creates better mechanics, patience, accuracy (when you have time to set u the shot), but nothing is ever set in an ideal situation...

A M4/M16 style weapon puts out a lot of puncture devices in a short timeframe...It can certainly take an adversary out...

It also has to do with training, weapon and tactics...Both individual and small unit work...Also know that YOU are not the end to ALL means, you always have something to learn and apply, if you live long enough...

If anything, I have seen some bad habits develop right from the start of some folks military training...It used to be solved by working with consistency with others, but we have such a high turnover rate, declining retention due to a lot of factors including political agendas that ARE effecting how well our forces work at all levels...

And that is most unfortunate...And puts lives at un-necessary risk...

Just my opinion...


103 posted on 02/24/2014 8:02:37 PM PST by stevie_d_64 (It's not the color of one's skin that offends people...it's how thin it is.)
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To: cripplecreek

I thought it was Nick Rowe but I could be wrong.


104 posted on 02/24/2014 8:36:29 PM PST by superfries
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To: superfries

Nick (Nicholas) was his middle name.


105 posted on 02/24/2014 8:38:33 PM PST by TADSLOS (The Event Horizon has come and gone. Buckle up and hang on.)
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To: Timber Rattler

106 posted on 02/24/2014 8:43:00 PM PST by Liberty Valance (Keep a simple manner for a happy life :o)
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To: Liberty Valance

Pretty telling.


107 posted on 02/24/2014 8:53:03 PM PST by TADSLOS (The Event Horizon has come and gone. Buckle up and hang on.)
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To: xzins
The Beretta BM 59 in my book is the finest battle rifle ever made. Never had a failure and accuracy is downright scary.
108 posted on 02/24/2014 10:00:06 PM PST by Gabrial (The nightmare will continue as long as the nightmare is in the Whitehouse.)
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To: doorgunner69

I stand corrected. I was under the impression that the M14 had a piston type operating system like the AK.


109 posted on 02/24/2014 10:12:44 PM PST by qaz123
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To: maine-iac7
I challenge all of you to find ONE incidence in the history of warfare where commanders deliberately stationed their troops in a ‘fishbowl’, surrounded by high ground.

Battle of Sedan, 1870. Auguste-Alexandre Ducrot said of it, "We are in the chamber pot and about to be shat upon." He was right.

110 posted on 02/24/2014 10:19:36 PM PST by Billthedrill
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To: stevie_d_64
See the trend???

Yes, I do, and have commented about it more specifically on other threads.

111 posted on 02/25/2014 3:44:44 AM PST by edpc (Wilby 2016)
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To: superfries

He went by his middle name which was Nicholas.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_N._Rowe


112 posted on 02/25/2014 3:49:46 AM PST by cripplecreek (REMEMBER THE RIVER RAISIN!)
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To: DMZFrank

Thank you DMZ...much appreciated.

Here’s something strange: The M1 Garand that I have feels like it has LESS recoil, even with the larger 7.62mmx63mm .30-06 round.

The M1A feels a little more “punchy”, even though the 7.62x51 round has less powder. I just attributed that to the placement of the gas tube.

While it’s not a problem, there is definitely a different feel to it.

Both are amazing.


113 posted on 02/25/2014 4:46:58 AM PST by NFHale (The Second Amendment - By Any Means Necessary.)
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To: eartick
I disagree with your assessment based not only on my own experience but based on competitors in CMP/Service Rifle, 3-gun, etc. where the AR platform dominates. When the overwhelming majority of the top competitors are using a particular rifle platform and are winning the overwhelming majority of matches, then objectively, at a minimum, the rifle is a more accurate platform. Further because they are winning it's obvious they aren't losing point from a finicky platform.

Competition is a good gauge of overall performance but it's not perfect. There are other consideration when one is factoring in real life or death situations. When those in our military that are given the option of choosing their own rifles and literally live and die by their choice of equipment, they choose the AR.

Objectively, it appears that the AR is simply the superior platform.

I love the M1A, it's an iconic rifle. It has a character and presence that the AR simply can't match. That doesn't mean that the AR isn't simply superior. It's like classic cars. The '67 Shelby GT500 is one of my favorite cars, it has a brilliant combination of class and track heritage muscle that simply can't be matched by the 2014 Shelby GT500. That being said the 2014 Shelby GT500 is a superior car by every measure.

114 posted on 02/25/2014 7:33:03 AM PST by Durus (You can avoid reality, but you cannot avoid the consequences of avoiding reality. Ayn Rand)
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To: NFHale

Garand recoil is amazingly mild for an ‘06.

That said, I read an account written by a guy who spent one night helping repel a human-wave attack in Korea; afterwards, his right shoulder was numb for days and black-and-blue for weeks.

Rifle stock also badly charred.


115 posted on 02/25/2014 7:46:17 AM PST by DuncanWaring (The Lord uses the good ones; the bad ones use the Lord.)
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To: Elsie

“Will they have any problems when the citizens SHOOT BACK???”

“problems”

Yes and Let them learn the hard way.


116 posted on 02/25/2014 8:07:39 AM PST by Slambat
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To: DuncanWaring

“...helping repel a human-wave attack in Korea...”

Just LISTEN to the sound of those words... sends shudders up the spine.

I read Jim Wilson’s “Retreat Hell: We’re Just Attacking In Another Direction” some years ago, about the fighting retreat from the Chosin Reservoir. Unbelievable what those guys went through.

The ChiComs had ZERO respect for the lives of their troops. Makes you wonder why they didn’t just turn their own weapons on the commissars.

I’ve also read/heard stories of Marines firing BARs until the barrels were cherry red, and the wood foregrips were smoking and burning, just from stopping those wave attacks.

Unreal...

RE the Garand: It is a honey to shoot, and to shoot well. It WANTS the 10x ring, every time. Love the sights on it too.


117 posted on 02/25/2014 8:12:11 AM PST by NFHale (The Second Amendment - By Any Means Necessary.)
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To: Liberty Valance

The M4 has a 1 in 60 round (2 mags) for stoppages? I’ve never experienced such a thing. I don’t know anyone who has.


118 posted on 02/25/2014 8:21:40 AM PST by CodeToad (Keeping whites from talking about blacks is verbal segregation!)
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To: DuncanWaring
That said, I read an account written by a guy who spent one night helping repel a human-wave attack in Korea; afterwards, his right shoulder was numb for days and black-and-blue for weeks.

Must have been loading and shooting more or less constantly all night. M1 is a pussycat, but there are limits to anything ...

119 posted on 02/25/2014 8:25:55 AM PST by NorthMountain
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To: edpc

Yep...I am catching up with that, as best I can...Muh bad...


120 posted on 02/25/2014 10:47:29 AM PST by stevie_d_64 (It's not the color of one's skin that offends people...it's how thin it is.)
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To: stevie_d_64

No worries


121 posted on 02/25/2014 10:48:45 AM PST by edpc (Wilby 2016)
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To: Slambat

;^)


122 posted on 02/25/2014 11:38:35 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Gabrial
“The Beretta BM 59 in my book is the finest battle rifle ever made. Never had a failure and accuracy is downright scary.”
********************
I have the semiauto Nigerian model, Love it, shot a couple of high power matches with it. The thing could shoot better than I could hold. Things were fine until a range master/ match director decided that the grenade launcher was was a muzzle brake so I had to go back to the Garand, O well
123 posted on 02/25/2014 1:38:15 PM PST by mongo141 (Revolution ver. 2.0, just a matter of when, not a matter of if!)
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To: Chainmail
The 7.62 X 39 used in the AK 47 is almost identical ballistically speaking to the 30-30. Although the AK is reputed to be inaccurate, I have fired several private, clean, tight AKs at 200 yards, and they are semi-reasonable for a military rifle, that is you can easily hit a square foot target somewhere. They are also reputed to be impervious to dirt and function well with '0' maintenance/abuse in Third World hands.

Army blurbs claim that the 5.56 with a the newer 70 grain bullet is killing people at 5-600 yards with excellent accuracy. But there's a problem. Seems to be that if you miss the kill shot, the wounds can be sustainable and the bad guys keep shooting. If they are behind even minimal cover, the bad guys are pretty safe, especially at longer ranges. That's in the open. In any kind of vegetation, the 5.56 is easily deflected and the M16-M4 series is indeed a bear to keep clean and yes, it is still reported jamming when most needed. And yes, troopers do buy and mount aftermarket parts to improve reliability.

Tests are underway with 6.5 and 6.8 ammo, with very impressive results. BTW, seems Army marksmanship has improved 1000% since the spray and pray tactics of Vietnam. In regard to "light weight:" by the time the Army finished modifying the original M16 to the point where it would sort of work most of the time, its weight difference with an M14 became less obvious. The big weight saving was due to the 5.56's much lighter weight, so a soldier can carry many more rounds. Also, there's no more "spray." Three round burst on auto.

124 posted on 02/25/2014 6:40:06 PM PST by Kenny Bunk (Don't let the aftershave and embalming fluid fool you. Many RINOs are actually dead meat.)
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To: mongo141

Sweet.

Now if WalMart would only carry stem grenades....

:-)


125 posted on 02/26/2014 5:58:22 AM PST by Gabrial (The nightmare will continue as long as the nightmare is in the Whitehouse.)
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To: Kenny Bunk
We have more than enough operational data to support everything that you've said and more. The problem is, that the system we have in today's DoD isn't interested in the best possible equipment for the troops - just maintaining their jobs and LOOKING like they're doing something. Most of all, the long-term GS managers have emotional investment in "their projects" and fight tooth and nail to prevent anything to replace them. And industry is just interested in making money with the big-buck (and largely useless) projects. Ammunition is a big deal because it is expensive in the volumes needed for training and combat and because we have massive stockpiles of existing stuff they want to keep using. Similar to the near-fielding of the superior .276 Pederson cartridge in the 1930s (which would have given the Garand a 10-round capacity) that was blocked by the army Chief of Staff, Douglas MacArthur because of all the costs of replacing .30-06 stockpiles.

As we get further down the "all-volunteer" road and the people who serve in the armed forces are just "somebody else's children", don't expect any greater efforts to find and field better weapons. They don't care.

126 posted on 02/26/2014 6:55:00 AM PST by Chainmail (A simple rule of life: if you can be blamed, you're responsible.)
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To: 2CAVTrooper
I remember discussing the new "digital" uniforms with some of the managers at Natick before they fielded that grey lashup and they told me (with a straight face) that "this color combination will conceal soldiers in any battlefield environment". When I asked them why there wasn't any black in the pattern, they said "black doesn't exist in nature".

Does anyone wonder what kind of idiocy we have entrenched within of acquisition and R&D system?

These are the same kinds of idiots who insist that "all of their computer lethality models show that 5.56mm is more lethal than any other caliber".

Picatinny, Natick, Aberdeen, Benning, and many other defense research and engineering agencies need strong flush and reorganization to come under experienced combat veteran leadership.

127 posted on 02/26/2014 7:02:31 AM PST by Chainmail (A simple rule of life: if you can be blamed, you're responsible.)
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