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To: Red6

You said: “.... The Russians played this game several times before. ...”

This is not fair. Imagine a area that is inhabited by 58.5 % Americans undergoing such political changes. We would see bazillons of lethernecks and aircraft carriers there. You Americans have still a disposition for martial appearances.

Best regards from good old central Europe

Andreas


52 posted on 03/01/2014 1:51:59 AM PST by European Guest (De omnibus dubitandum)
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To: European Guest
This is not fair. Imagine a area that is inhabited by 58.5 % Americans undergoing such political changes. We would see bazillons of lethernecks and aircraft carriers there. You Americans have still a disposition for martial appearances.

A big part of this view about the US being a bunch of strutting cowboys is Soviet propaganda combined with European complacency based on decades of American protection. The real issue is American conventional wisdom, which is more or less that if the US had sent (I'm being facetious here) an expeditionary force to arrest Hitler during the Beer Hall Putsch, WWII wouldn't have occurred. That's right - American conventional wisdom is that at bottom, the US was responsible for WWII. Not Russia, which signed the Molotov Ribbentrop Pact, thereby giving Germany a free hand to invade its neighbors, and supplied Nazi Germany's war machine while that invasion was ongoing. Not Germany, which obviously did attempt to create a Third Thousand Year Reich. Not France and Britain, which stood by as Poland was invaded instead of attacking Germany's exposed western flank. Not Poland and Hungary, which divvied up Czechoslovakia with Germany instead of insisting on its independence. Not the Netherlands and Belgium, which let their military forces atrophy in the post-WWI years.

Nope. The US conventional wisdom is that America's minding its own business was the cause of WWII. And every flare-up across the globe where the US doesn't respond with military force is the second coming of Munich - the appeasement of a monster among men who will trigger a large scale military and humanitarian disaster akin to Hitler's. The American left has sold the entire country on this concept, which is why we are subsidizing Asia's and Europe's defense three decades after they caught up with us economically. It is long past time we cancelled our defense treaties, brought the troops home and sharply reduced our defense budget to avoid the temptation of getting involved in quixotic wars abroad. The problem is that until we do that, we will forever be tangled up in the affairs of places like Ukraine. As long as we're responsible for Poland's, Romania's, Bulgaria's, Hungary's and Slovakia's defense, we need to worry about what's happening in Ukraine. A Finlandized (Russian-leaning but neutral) Ukraine is helpful because it provides some breathing space in the event of a Russian push west. A Ukraine that is an integral part of Russia means Russian troops on NATO's border.

What's weird is that we emerged from WWII with the complex that we were responsible for peace in the world, regardless of cost. It wasn't us that slaughtered half the Jews in the world. It wasn't us that conducted large-scale post-surrender massacres in the Far East. But for some convoluted reason, it was us who were responsible for making sure that the post-war era was safe from people like Hitler. That's how we ended up fighting in godforsaken places like Korea and Vietnam.

I'm of two minds about Ukraine. On the one hand, the Russian annexation of Ukraine will cause security problems for our allies. On the other hand, a supine response from the EU, mirrored by Obama's insouciance about the whole affair might not be a bad thing - we might finally get a sea change in American public opinion, one that finally shrugs off the costly (to Americans) myth that we have a God-given responsibility to obviate the security problems of countries thousands of miles away from us.

53 posted on 03/01/2014 4:22:59 AM PST by Zhang Fei (Let us pray that peace be now restored to the world and that God will preserve it always.)
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To: European Guest

The only problem with your argument is that the Russians fuel the problems and are part of the cause for the chaos in the first place. They help create the conditions so that they can have justification to go in. They have folks that get brought in (civilian clothed), they pay thugs, provide Intel, and safe havens etc. They make the problem they then say they have to fix and yes, the republic of Georgia was the same scenario.

While incredibly amateurish from our side, how do you think some of our communications with the Ukrainians get into the public? Those are controlled releases that intend to influence us/euro actions.

Russia doesn’t want to return to the days if soviet occupation, but they want to re-establish their hegemony regionally and this is done through various ways/means. The Ukraine orienting itself with Europe is simply unacceptable to them, and if need be even a civil war in the Ukraine to prevent this is justifued to them.


57 posted on 03/01/2014 9:17:49 AM PST by Red6
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To: European Guest

Basically your entire augment is based on an erroneous premise, in that the real issue is the Russian intentions and actions to ensure the Ukraine does NOT drift towards the West/EU. The entire ethic Russian debate is merely a facade that is used as rationalization and it is something that they help instigate in the first place.

The problem is that at the most senior US levels you have amateurs. While the bureaucracy is highly competent (highly selective, extensive training, often folks with decades of experience), in such organizations as the DoD and Department of State, the most senior officials are appointed politically, and they are often buffoons: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7EFMHtmNHbg (need one say more?) or: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CL_GShyGv3o

The executive office if frozen into inaction and EVERYONE knows that the US will do nothing except spew hot air... This administration is bent on military disengagement and is more concerned with social issues inside the US: health care, immigration, race, global warming, the homosexual agenda... There will be no military action or even anything that could potentially cause escalation, so the Russians will win by default because they are willing to wager more in this poker game plus their folks aren’t amateurs (they have so far cleaned the US’s clocks in the intel game). That simple. All the normally long winded and self ingratiating Obama can do is give a 3 minute speech, because he’s already lost this game and he knows it too: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dU79NIoWDIE

The Ukraine will NOT orient itself to Europe, but you should be happy, you’re a European and you like a more passive, weaker, non-militaristic US... The Germans like the Carter, Clinton, Obama... types for a reason.


58 posted on 03/01/2014 4:05:41 PM PST by Red6
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