Posted on 03/01/2014 9:12:13 PM PST by 2ndDivisionVet
Being an overseas vet of WWII and with my only brother killed on Okinawa I probably see things differently than many other people. As such if the USA has no compelling self interest in the Ukraine/Russia we should be ready to protect our interests with as great a force as we can muster but not use such assets unless needed for our own interests. I see no inherent USA interest in what goes on with Russia and Ukraine. That western Europe financial interests cannot get/take from Russia oil and gas deposits or set up their own lines through the contested areas is not compelling enough for loss one USA life,overtly or covertly.
I have not advocated the US send one soldier to Ukraine.
“However if Putin overplays his hand and seizes large amounts of Eastern Ukraine, it would badly frighten the Germans and the economic consequences would be punishing.”
If Germany gets feisty, doesn’t Russia just turn off the natural gas?
“Being an overseas vet of WWII and with my only brother killed on Okinawa I probably see things differently than many other people. As such if the USA has no compelling self interest in the Ukraine/Russia we should be ready to protect our interests with as great a force as we can muster but not use such assets unless needed for our own interests. I see no inherent USA interest in what goes on with Russia and Ukraine. That western Europe financial interests cannot get/take from Russia oil and gas deposits or set up their own lines through the contested areas is not compelling enough for loss one USA life,overtly or covertly.”
Yes.
That's what I was thinking...
But there is this, dated March 2 Russian armed forces seize Crimea as Putin threatens wider military invasion of Ukraine including what we could guess comes next, as outlined;
Members of the Russian Federation Council said that their nation's troops are needed to protect the safety of millions of ethnic Russians in Ukraine and that the soldiers should stay until "the constitutional order is restored in Ukraine," which hints at a possible Russian attempt to return to power Viktor Yanukovych, ousted as Ukraine's president on Feb. 22, or install another Kremlin-friendly leader.
It's been so far a limited occupation, limited to some forces in the Crimea, with a fig leaf covering of approval by the Crimean region's political head --- with Moscow disavowing legitimacy in Kiev presently, to make up for lack of invite from those in Kiev. Now the Russians seem to be threatening settling the matter firsthand -- with their own hands. (ok, while they're busy there we can invade Mexico, draft it's young men into an army firmly under U.S. control, then go take out the trash in Venezuela, eh? jez kidding...)
Those in Kiev need to get their ducks in a row as to charges of corruption, including specifically Yanukovych family placements within government department positions, along with his and his mob's pressuring of judges. If a few of those judges would come forward, it could be yet more dynamite to demand extradition of Yanukovych, rather than some Kremlin-backed heroic return. Frog march time, line the charges up carefully, but don't tip one's hand as to the most sure and deadliest and solid of allegations against Yanukovych until the last possible micro second. Crucify the (rich as Croesus) criminal bum. Throw him under the jail. After a fair trial, of course. ;^')
But Russia has other outcomes in mind. This looks like it's could get very nasty, with once again it being a heart-breaking things of evil warfare, to have been born in Ukraine. Will those people ever get a real break?
Kremlin minded backers are being fed the lies that those who oppose this [expletive deleted] Yanukovych, are Fascists. Uh-huh. yeah right. The Russians are lying sacks of "it" --- but they believe their own stinking piles(!) which is what makes them dangerous.
Here's some more on Yanukovych [below].
Yanukovych Leaks sheds light on Ukraine’s high-living ex-leader
Ukrainian journalists are going through thousands of papers, some of them partly burned, others fished out of a lake.Ukraine: Corruption Doesn’t Capture ItSome reports say they include plans for the use of even deadlier force than was unleashed on protesters last week. Yet most of the documents had to do with spending.
Journalist Oleksandr Akymenko said: “The documents are very valuable. They could help prove corruption schemes used by Yanukovych personally, his team and his inner circle. They contain lots of data linked to various companies close to the residence and to him.”
Since it became an independent state 23 years ago, Ukraine has been looted by its structure of government at all levels and those close to it. The word “corruption” is not adequate to describe present-day Ukraine, and in fact, distorts reality. Western listeners, often aware of corruption in their own countries, and certainly it exists everywhere else, shrug their shoulders and remain unimpressed. But what has taken place in Ukraine all these years, and accelerated rapidly under the current government, goes far beyond corruption. It is a policy of looting the country, transformed over the last several years into systematic and institutionalized extortion that reached all the way down into society, after not much was left to be stolen at the top.
Further down in the same article;
To understand what led to the current protests in Ukraine, it helps to rewind the tape of history and to start with perhaps the most “politically incorrect” question for the West: how privatization took place in Ukraine (as well as in the other post-Soviet states) in the early 1990s and what role international institutions and Western experts played in it. I believe that, in its rush to shatter the existing centrally planned economy, to push free market reforms, and to make irrevocable the departure from socialism, the West made a fundamental misjudgment. It acted as if democratic societies can be built starting with economic changes even when institutional and governmental reforms are lacking.From June 8, 2012 Yanukovych, the luxury residence and the money trail that leads to LondonThe post-Soviet countries received a massive impetus from the West for the economic changes and reallocation of property rights reflected in privatization while they lacked the traditions and habits of accountable, transparent governance or any experience with grassroots democracy. In these conditions, privatization meant that state assets and natural resources landed firmly in the hands of those close to power, leaving the rest of the country in both financial and moral turmoil.
All that accelerated during the Yanukovych presidency, and was extended all the way down through the society. I was told in one government ministry that in each department, employees were forced to contribute part of his or her monthly salary, the money flowing up through the pyramid to those on top. This became generalized through government institutions. Any small business owner in Ukraine who hasn’t lost their company outright to physical threats or shady financial maneuvers ratified by corrupt courts, knows the necessity of paying large bribes to government officials just to keep the doors open.
April 9, 2012 In Ukraine, scales of justice often imbalanced
well it was Ottoman before the Russians took it in 1783.
Ukraine has always been the most significant economic and strategic possession of Russia. Putin is a 20th century person. Russia for centuries has desired buffer zones to protect against invasion from Western Europe
Russia’s real problem will be China but Putin doesn’t see it that way
I am afraid all of Ukraine will soon be lost
Because with "The Won" in the WH, the whole world would love us and respect us and be nice to us and be nice to each other and the White Christians would be eradicated and the world would be a really really nice place so "The Won" could sit on his golden and bejeweled throne and wield his vibrating scepter forever after?
Obama listens to nobody in the US except possibley ValJar and George Soros.
And NO he will not commit troops anywhere to oppose an enemy of the US. And all the enemies of the US know this. That is why this is so bad.
But, Putin and the Russian Army are not unstoppable.
But Obama will never stop him. Or allow anyone to stop him. He has already told Putin this.
And NO he will not commit troops anywhere to oppose an enemy of the US. And all the enemies of the US know this. That is why this is so bad.
Agreed,
But, Putin and the Russian Army are not unstoppable.
Agreed. EVERYone is stoppable. One needs only a "bigger stick."
But Obama will never stop him. Or allow anyone to stop him. He has already told Putin this.
So, WHO will stop him? You've got all the answers but the BIG one. WHO will stop him??
Putin IS unstoppable if WE don't stop him. Don't you GET it? You expect WHOM to stop him?
**You've given me good logic so far, but NOW answer the question if you can. WHO WILL STOP HIM?
Maybe we have to wait for a GOP president who has some cajones. Unfortunately it may be too late for Ukraine.
There will be a Ukrainian anschluss, and, just like the Austrian example, it will be very popular with the natives (IMO).
As someone once said, people will follow the strong horse.
Unlikely. Ukraine is nothing like Poland, or Czecho, or Hungary. There is a small ball interpretation of the current situation - you know, Kievan Rus, neo-Nazi fascists, etc, etc.
If Putin is playing the big game, though, he will be negotiating with Germany soon.
The only geopolitical question of significance in Europe remains, where is the border between Germany and Russia?
Stalingrad is too far East. The Elbe is too far West. The rest remains to be determined.
1. Agreed.
2. Why will China be Russia's real problem?
China is having its own problems with that train station attack in SW China that left 27 dead in a terrorism act. China may not have the will to go after Russia with these problems facing it. Who knows?
3. I'm afraid you're right. Who will defend Ukraine if we don't?
What would make Putin change his mind?
Sanctions?
Diplomacy?
Gold bullion?
=========================================
I personally think that there are pressures on Putin that we don't know about. I doubt that we will ever get the whole story. Between the Russian and Western media we get nothing but lies, more lies and statistics. [Mark Twain, probably, but NOT Disraeli.]
Good analysis of what makes Putin and Russia tick. What the motivations are
Always follow the money when it comes to what goes on in DC because its all about gettin' paid. Nobody does anything for free there
“WHERE, O WHERE is a General George Smith Patton, Jr. when we need one?!?!”
Try Gen. James “Mad Dog” Mattis. He might be what you’re looking for.
http://freebeacon.com/the-best-from-mad-dog-mattis/
There was a time when Dems did not care about foreign policy. But that ended in the 1960’s. Since the Commies took over the ComDem Party they have had global designs.
Those financing the destruction of the US under Obozo are FOREIGN INTERESTS.
There is an interesting article here about Turkey's potential claim to Crimea if it were to ever become fully autonomous, although I'm not sure the 1699 Treaty of Karlowitz is still binding.
It takes a certain kind of person ... a MAN...to be a general: brains, guts, attitude, education, aggression. They are very special and we need them!
PLEASE, folks, no static about "MAN." Men and women ARE different and women generals are NOT the same ... and NO, they aren't better than men generals.
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