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Will America heed the wake-up call of Ukraine?
http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/condoleezza-rice-will-america-heed-the-wake-up-call-of-ukraine/2014/03/07/cf087f74-a630-11e3-84d4-e59b1709222c_story.html ^ | 8 Mar 14 | Condoleezza Rice

Posted on 03/10/2014 4:25:10 AM PDT by elhombrelibre

“Meet Viktor Yanu­kovych, who is running for the presidency of Ukraine.” Vladimir Putin and I were standing in his office at the presidential dacha in late 2004 when Yanu­kovych suddenly appeared from a back room. Putin wanted me to get the point. He’s my man, Ukraine is ours — and don’t forget it.

The “Ukrainian problem” has been brewing for some time between the West and Russia. Since Ukraine’s Orange Revolution, the United States and Europe have tried to convince Russia that the vast territory should not be a pawn in a great-power conflict but rather an independent nation that could chart its own course. Putin has never seen it that way. For him, Kiev’s movement toward the West is an affront to Russia in a zero-sum game for the loyalty of former territories of the empire. The invasion and possible annexation of Crimea on trumped-up concerns for its Russian-speaking population is his answer to us.

(Excerpt) Read more at washingtonpost.com ...


TOPICS: Crime/Corruption; Foreign Affairs; Russia
KEYWORDS: mousolini; putinism
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1 posted on 03/10/2014 4:25:10 AM PDT by elhombrelibre
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To: elhombrelibre

“Will America heed the wake-up call of Ukraine?”

What, that having a vindictive Marxist as president isn’t actually that great?


2 posted on 03/10/2014 4:28:39 AM PDT by demshateGod (The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God.)
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To: demshateGod

Yes, that’s probably the biggest part of the problem.


3 posted on 03/10/2014 4:29:25 AM PDT by elhombrelibre (Free Ukraine. Free Venezuela. Free Syria. Free Iran. Free the USA.)
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To: elhombrelibre

Not until the Russians are marching on the Champs Elysees.


4 posted on 03/10/2014 4:42:14 AM PDT by UnbelievingScumOnTheOtherSide (HELL, NO! BE UNGOVERNABLE! --- ISLAM DELENDA EST)
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To: elhombrelibre
What Europe went through in the 19th century...the GLOBE will go through on another level, and soon.

The Internet and ease of global communication have/will accelerate what may have taken decades longer to accomplish.

I am glad I will be dead before it goes that far!

I continue re reading my ‘Revolt of the Masses’ with genuine foreboding.

5 posted on 03/10/2014 4:45:35 AM PDT by SMARTY ("When you blame others, you give up your power to change." Robert Anthony)
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To: elhombrelibre


6 posted on 03/10/2014 4:46:18 AM PDT by Iron Munro (Albert Einstein: The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits)
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To: SMARTY
What Europe went through in the 19th century...the GLOBE will go through on another level, and soon.

Franco-Prussian war? I guess you could argue that Alsace-Lorraine led directly to WWI.

7 posted on 03/10/2014 4:51:16 AM PDT by palmer (There's someone in my lead but it's not me)
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To: elhombrelibre

America hasn’t even awoken enough to hit its own snooze .... you expect awareness of another country ?


8 posted on 03/10/2014 4:51:28 AM PDT by knarf (I say things that are true .. I have no proof .. but they're true.)
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To: palmer

Right, but I meant also, all the revolutions that took place to overthrow establishment governments.


9 posted on 03/10/2014 4:52:57 AM PDT by SMARTY ("When you blame others, you give up your power to change." Robert Anthony)
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To: elhombrelibre

Ukraine is a possible preview of what could very well happen in the USA down the road.


10 posted on 03/10/2014 4:57:19 AM PDT by Biggirl (“Go, do not be afraid, and serve”-Pope Francis)
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To: UnbelievingScumOnTheOtherSide
Not until the Russians are marching on the Champs Elysees.

Not until the Russians are marching in downtown Anchorage.

After all, it was a stupid deal that the Tsar made with Seward. They want their land back!

11 posted on 03/10/2014 4:57:43 AM PDT by COBOL2Java (I'm a Christian, pro-life, pro-gun, Reaganite. The GOP hates me. Why should I vote for them?)
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To: knarf

Keep a close eye on May 16, 2014, “Operation American Spring” rally is coming to D.C.


12 posted on 03/10/2014 4:58:45 AM PDT by Biggirl (“Go, do not be afraid, and serve”-Pope Francis)
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To: elhombrelibre

As it is and was, Ukraine is a buffer, a time zone for invaders to cross before reaching the border of the mother land.

Under NATO hegemony with forces in Ukraine, the buffer is gone. the threat is at the border. That is an unacceptable condition for Russian defense.

Therefore, Ukraine if not within Russian borders, must at least be under Russian hegemony.

While there are other benefits to being very close to Ukraine economically and politically, the primary over riding reason is to have a geographical buffer against invasion.


13 posted on 03/10/2014 4:59:11 AM PDT by bert ((K.E. N.P. N.C. +12 ..... History is a process, not an event)
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To: Biggirl

I really don’t know what you mean by your post.


14 posted on 03/10/2014 4:59:23 AM PDT by elhombrelibre (Free Ukraine. Free Venezuela. Free Syria. Free Iran. Free the USA.)
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To: elhombrelibre
Interesting to hear from Condoleeza Rice on this issue. This little tidbit caught my eye:

The immediate concern must be to show Russia that further moves will not be tolerated and that Ukraine’s territorial integrity is sacrosanct.

Her entire premise about the interests of the United States is based on this flawed statement about the "territorial integrity" of a jurisdiction that didn't even exist as an independent entity until 1991. If you go back over the history of Ukraine you'll find that at various times the territory we call "Ukraine" was part of Poland, Austria, Lithuania and the Soviet Union. And even under the control of the Soviet Union, the area known as Crimea wasn't even part of the Ukrainian SSR until 1954.

I find it odd that someone like Condoleeza Rice would sit there and pontificate about the sanctity of democratic elections, but only under her own terms where the elections are held in a region under her definition of "territorial integrity." How about the sanctity of the democratic process in eastern Ukraine and Crimea, Ms. Rice, where all indications are that those people want no part of Ukraine?

15 posted on 03/10/2014 4:59:23 AM PDT by Alberta's Child ("I've never seen such a conclave of minstrels in my life.")
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To: COBOL2Java

Doubt the Russians will even bother to march to downtown Anchorage. Russia is in BIGTIME financial trouble.


16 posted on 03/10/2014 4:59:51 AM PDT by Biggirl (“Go, do not be afraid, and serve”-Pope Francis)
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To: knarf

Agree!

I was looking at some of the photos of the thousands upon thousands
of (protesters) in the square at Kiev, standing toe to toe with armed, helmeted, shield holding police/military, and asked myself:
“could we, would we do the same here?” sadly my honest answer was:
“No, I doubt it!”

I, and I hope many here, would be there, but am afraid our numbers would be too small.


17 posted on 03/10/2014 5:00:13 AM PDT by Airwinger ( A Militia Of One)
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To: elhombrelibre

What I mean to say is that the Ukraine could, and the word here is could be a possible preview to what could very well happen in the USA down the road.


18 posted on 03/10/2014 5:02:06 AM PDT by Biggirl (“Go, do not be afraid, and serve”-Pope Francis)
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To: bert

You ignore the obvious point that the only threat to Putin is his own people. That’s why he could not tolerate Ukraine breaking free, not a threat from NATO, with it’s 1% investments in defense.


19 posted on 03/10/2014 5:02:07 AM PDT by elhombrelibre (Free Ukraine. Free Venezuela. Free Syria. Free Iran. Free the USA.)
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To: Airwinger

I do not agree though. “ When PUSH comes to SHOVE” anything can happen, mark my words.


20 posted on 03/10/2014 5:03:49 AM PDT by Biggirl (“Go, do not be afraid, and serve”-Pope Francis)
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To: Alberta's Child

Condoleeza Rice’s views are in synch with the Ukrainians. You seem to prefer Putin calling the shots without regard for the Ukrainians views. Why you value Putin over the people of Ukraine or Putin is worth exploring.


21 posted on 03/10/2014 5:04:21 AM PDT by elhombrelibre (Free Ukraine. Free Venezuela. Free Syria. Free Iran. Free the USA.)
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To: Biggirl

-——Russia is in BIGTIME financial trouble.-—

With that thought, I have carefully observed the Russian troops shown in the Crimea. They are outfitted very much like the American and Brit troops we see in Afghanistan. I wonder if all the Russian troops are so outfitted or is it only one regiment


22 posted on 03/10/2014 5:06:05 AM PDT by bert ((K.E. N.P. N.C. +12 ..... History is a process, not an event)
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To: bert

It is Russian Spetnaz; they’re the elite.


23 posted on 03/10/2014 5:07:26 AM PDT by elhombrelibre (Free Ukraine. Free Venezuela. Free Syria. Free Iran. Free the USA.)
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To: elhombrelibre

As far as I know, Putin has no threat from the Russian people. They like him


24 posted on 03/10/2014 5:07:28 AM PDT by bert ((K.E. N.P. N.C. +12 ..... History is a process, not an event)
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To: elhombrelibre

Ahh yes...... thanks for that


25 posted on 03/10/2014 5:08:21 AM PDT by bert ((K.E. N.P. N.C. +12 ..... History is a process, not an event)
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To: elhombrelibre
Yeah our boys are just coming home from Afghanistan. Let's start another war. If Ukraine wants to be part of the European Union let them take the lead.
26 posted on 03/10/2014 5:10:26 AM PDT by McGruff (Republicans need to show Obama some RSPECT.)
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To: elhombrelibre
Condoleeza Rice’s views are in synch with the Ukrainians.

Which "Ukrainians" are you referring to? Does this include the ones in eastern Ukraine and Crimea who are scheduled to vote in a referendum next week to decide whether to secede from Ukraine?

I'm not sure why I should value your opinion -- or the opinion of Condoleeza Rice -- over the will of those eastern Ukrainians in a free and democratic election.

27 posted on 03/10/2014 5:10:58 AM PDT by Alberta's Child ("I've never seen such a conclave of minstrels in my life.")
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To: elhombrelibre

And what would that wakeup call be?

Unless events affect them personally, most Americans don’t have a clue as to what’s occurring beyond their front door.


28 posted on 03/10/2014 5:16:36 AM PDT by ScottinVA (Obama is so far in over his head, even his ears are beneath the water level.)
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To: bert

Yes, they like him so much that he has to ban their exercise of free assembly; he has to jail the opposition leaders, and shoot journalists. I don’t think you’re tracking the real Russia at all.


29 posted on 03/10/2014 5:19:26 AM PDT by elhombrelibre (Free Ukraine. Free Venezuela. Free Syria. Free Iran. Free the USA.)
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To: Alberta's Child

Well, if you don’t value my opinion, why do you insist on replying to me? I assume you fear for Putin and are, maybe, emotionally invested in him.


30 posted on 03/10/2014 5:20:39 AM PDT by elhombrelibre (Free Ukraine. Free Venezuela. Free Syria. Free Iran. Free the USA.)
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To: bert
Therefore, Ukraine if not within Russian borders, must at least be under Russian hegemony.

Therefore, Ukraine if not within European borders, must at least be under European hegemony.

I don't understand why people fail to look at the flip side of the coin.

31 posted on 03/10/2014 5:21:44 AM PDT by 1rudeboy
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Comment #32 Removed by Moderator

To: elhombrelibre
No, they [we]won't. As long as the ETB cards are full. So that the sheep can but beer, dope, and gas, the sheep will remain pacified. As long as there is NFL football and American Idol to watch, the sheep will chew their cud and lie peacefully and blissful at rest. And by hook or by crook, their masters will see to it that the EBT cards remain full and that there is a plentiful supply of alcohol and dope to sedate them. It will only be when they [the sheep] are in the slaughter line will their masters collapse the ETB cards.

By now, the Ukrainians should have learned the lesson that the American sheep have yet to learn. That lesson: Never entrust your life to a Democrat. Never expect anyone other than yourself to defend your life. Never take the word, sworn, unsworn, signed, or verbal of a Democrat.

The people of the United States made the same mistake that the Ukrainians made. The Democrat poison just has not worked itself through their system yet. Once it does the results will be the same.

33 posted on 03/10/2014 5:23:39 AM PDT by sport
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To: All

I think most Americans are “awake” over this subject, that the Ukraine is none of our business. If Crimea votes to go with Russia, then let it.


34 posted on 03/10/2014 5:23:45 AM PDT by escapefromboston (manny ortez: mvp)
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To: 1rudeboy

Read my post...... Russia wants a a buffer

Europe has no such desire.


35 posted on 03/10/2014 5:27:20 AM PDT by bert ((K.E. N.P. N.C. +12 ..... History is a process, not an event)
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To: elhombrelibre
Condoleeza Rice’s views are in synch with the Ukrainians.

Nonsense.

36 posted on 03/10/2014 5:27:51 AM PDT by mac_truck ( Aide toi et dieu t aidera)
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To: All

Operation American Spring is coming to D.C. on May 16, 2014.


37 posted on 03/10/2014 5:40:17 AM PDT by Biggirl (“Go, do not be afraid, and serve”-Pope Francis)
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To: mac_truck

http://edition.cnn.com/2014/03/04/world/europe/ukraine-divided-opinion-irpt/


38 posted on 03/10/2014 5:40:40 AM PDT by elhombrelibre (Free Ukraine. Free Venezuela. Free Syria. Free Iran. Free the USA.)
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To: mac_truck

http://www.huri.harvard.edu/news/news-archives/155-what-do-the-ukrainians-want.html


39 posted on 03/10/2014 5:44:09 AM PDT by elhombrelibre (Free Ukraine. Free Venezuela. Free Syria. Free Iran. Free the USA.)
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To: mac_truck

http://blogs.forward.com/forward-thinking/193313/ukraines-reform-rabbi-cheers-protests-victory/


40 posted on 03/10/2014 5:46:25 AM PDT by elhombrelibre (Free Ukraine. Free Venezuela. Free Syria. Free Iran. Free the USA.)
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To: bert

You mean Putin has to take over Ukraine to have a bumper and the people of Ukraine should be fine with that? Obama has his zombies and Putin has his Putinistas.


41 posted on 03/10/2014 5:48:00 AM PDT by elhombrelibre (Free Ukraine. Free Venezuela. Free Syria. Free Iran. Free the USA.)
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To: elhombrelibre

Appeals to emotion are no substitute for facts, and the fact is the Ukraine is deeply divided between West & East. Neither you or the Obama regime’s media propaganda stories are going to change that reality.


42 posted on 03/10/2014 5:52:37 AM PDT by mac_truck ( Aide toi et dieu t aidera)
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To: elhombrelibre

It is not required that Ukraine become Russia as it was a part of the USSR.

I don’t think total control is necessary. Hegemonic status for Ukraine will likely be OK. Of course I really don’t know.

I think that NATO on the border, EU hegemony, is for Russia very undesirable to the point of not letting it happen.

If you look back a few years, the whole notion of the Iron Curtain was to provide a crush zone, a place to defeat invaders, before they could set foot on the Motherland. That concept is for a number of reasons reduced to Ukraine alone


43 posted on 03/10/2014 6:17:18 AM PDT by bert ((K.E. N.P. N.C. +12 ..... History is a process, not an event)
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To: Biggirl

If we would just ease up the permit process to liquefy and ship natural gas to Europe, we could crush Russia without ever firing a shot.

We could also help by giving European nations money to aid in developing the infrastructure to unload the natural gas at their port/pipeline facilities.

Oil and natural gas is where Russia makes all its foreign currency. If you lower the value of oil and gas we could collapse them just like we did in the eighties. The nice side effect would be hurting OPEC to. We could also crush Venezuela.


44 posted on 03/10/2014 6:21:06 AM PDT by woodbutcher1963 (=)
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To: woodbutcher1963

I remember seeing a map of the Ukraine and all the piplines going through there frome Russia a cople of weeks back.


45 posted on 03/10/2014 6:24:57 AM PDT by Biggirl (“Go, do not be afraid, and serve”-Pope Francis)
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To: elhombrelibre

“You are a threat to me, but I am not to you. Therefore, let me do what I want.”


46 posted on 03/10/2014 6:25:58 AM PDT by 1rudeboy
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To: elhombrelibre

When we no longer have a government wanting to put us into re-education camps, or worse, then, we can give a about Ukraines.


47 posted on 03/10/2014 6:50:26 AM PDT by depressed in 06 (America conceived in liberty, dies in slavery.)
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To: Biggirl
The pipelines from Russia go through the Ukraine and Poland to feed the western European countries.

The European community has dictated that their electricity producers must lower their CO2 output by law. To do this they must lower the amount of coal they burn and increase natural gas and other carbon neutral fuels such as wood pellets. In addition they will build more windmills, solar, wave power, etc. This will increase the demand for natural gas in Europe in the next several decades as the older coal fired plants are fazed out. This is also why Iran, Saudi Arabia and Qatar are so interested in controlling Syria. Syria is the route for Persian gulf natural gas to Europe.

As a side note there are several large wood pellet plants that are proposed to be built on the eastern coast of the US just to ship to Europe. I know of one in Maine and two in NC. These pellet plants are being built to supply European plants that currently burn coal.

48 posted on 03/10/2014 6:51:37 AM PDT by woodbutcher1963 (=)
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To: mac_truck

I note your emotional appeal for Putin. I don’t understand it, but it’s noted. But I appeal for the Ukrainian people who are as entitled to their freedom as any other nation, especially since their own national history predates Russia, especially since the Russian Communist murdered so many Ukrainians in 1933, and especially since Putin is occupying their sovereign territory right now solely for his own self-aggradizement.


49 posted on 03/10/2014 6:54:57 AM PDT by elhombrelibre (Free Ukraine. Free Venezuela. Free Syria. Free Iran. Free the USA.)
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To: 1rudeboy

Yeah, it’s the bullies mantra. You’re threatening me, so I’ll beat you up. It’s schoolyard stuff, but the more feminine FReepers are smitten with Putin so much they cannot see past their bromance.


50 posted on 03/10/2014 6:56:29 AM PDT by elhombrelibre (Free Ukraine. Free Venezuela. Free Syria. Free Iran. Free the USA.)
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