It looks like we are just being repetitive.
It is not enough for a thief to on pay back what was stolen if caught. If there is no consequences to stop the wrong actions society would be overrun with law breakers.
Punishment is, and will always be a deterrent in society. If government fails to provide punishment, eventually groups in society, after being overrun, will rise up and force it to happen.
How do you stop speeding on the highways? Those that give false testimony in court? Fist fights in a bar?
In a way yes. There a nuances that keep coming put of this discussion which I find interesting. But you don't seem to be seriously contemplating the alternatives I raise. Rather than specifically address the substance of what I'm saying you're repeating the same questions. Other than flat rejection with no backup reasoning, you're arguments have not addressed the specific alternatives I've raised. On the other hand, I have explained in detail why I reject punishment. You don't do the same with the alternatives I've raised, you just keep cycling around to punishment as the only consequence available.
It is not enough for a thief to on pay back what was stolen if caught. If there is no consequences to stop the wrong actions society would be overrun with law breakers.
How come you see punishment as the only available consequence? Payback IS a consequence. Depending on the situation, payback could include many things like monetary restitution for loss of interest, loss of opportunity, and pain and suffering from those he stole from. Depending on the severity of the harm, he might have to do at least part of it from prison, but the kind of productive prison I've been talking about.
Punishment is, and will always be a deterrent in society.
CONSEQUENCES are and will always be a deterrent but the purpose of those consequences can be something other than punishment.
The issue isn't "punishment" but consequences. As I've said, valid alternative consequences to punishment are protection of society, valid restitution, productive incarceration with voluntary, solid, and verifiable rehab programs.
If government fails to provide punishment, eventually groups in society, after being overrun, will rise up and force it to happen.
That may be true, but it doesn't make it right. I think that if what I am talking about were seriously and diligently implemented, I think over time, people would be much happier with the result because the law would force criminal to pay their victims back which is not case in today's "punishment" paradigm.
The only thing that I think your scenario about people rising up would possibly be blood-thirsty vengeance of death for some heinous crime. But again, that doesn't make it right. A society that demands protection from dangerous criminals and allows appropriate consequences would be a happier, more peaceful society than a vengeful society IMO. Isn't that the point and the goal of what we're all after: a happier, more peaceful and free society? Again, I think these alternatives would help cultivate a happier society unlike the vengeance consciousness of punishment mentality.
How do you stop speeding on the highways?
Are you reading my responses? I've gone over this with you.
Those that give false testimony in court? Fist fights in a bar?
This could go on forever. With a good-faith effort, you could apply the alternatives I've raised in any of these scenarios. There's a million examples of better alternatives to mindless punishment.