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To: WhiskeyX
Everyone I've discussed Ukraine with, maybe a dozen folks, know about the Stalin's starvation of Ukraine in the 30's.

That's not to say we shouldn't keep talking about it...but I'm not sure it applies to the events of today.

There's rationing in Crimea because Russia has some real logistical problems without a land bridge.

That is the sole cause.

Putin's obvious strategy is to win the hearts and minds...to the extent possible...of new and prospective territory. A deliberate program of starvation would be counter to those goals.

And to compare Putin to Stalin is ludicrous. Putin is much smarter and far more sophisticated than Stalin.

And, depending on his end objectives, potentially more dangerous.

Because it's not like anyone in the West is going to oppose him.

9 posted on 05/10/2014 8:03:25 AM PDT by Mariner (War Criminal #18)
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To: Mariner

The shortages of food and water are being used by Russia to justify the further takeover of Southern and Eastern Ukraine. In addition to the ethnic claims, that drive the increasing violence the shortages, while real, will increase the Ukrainians are nazis meme.


10 posted on 05/10/2014 8:18:49 AM PDT by JimSEA
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To: Mariner

“There’s rationing in Crimea because Russia has some real logistical problems without a land bridge.”

Rationing was proposed and not yet implemented. Virtually every Ukrainian family lost family members in the Russian starvation of the Ukrainians known as the Holomodor. Try telling the Ukrainians and Tatars the Russian rationing of food supplies in the Holomodor doesn’t apply to the rationing of food supplies in today’s Crimea.


11 posted on 05/10/2014 8:19:30 AM PDT by WhiskeyX
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To: Mariner

Not to mention Ukraine is blocading and cut off water supply.
Nice way to win hearts and minds, on par with tanks and choppers in E Ukraine.


17 posted on 05/10/2014 9:02:16 AM PDT by wetphoenix
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To: Mariner

“There’s rationing in Crimea because Russia has some real logistical problems without a land bridge.”

That is where the report last weekend about moving heavy pontoon bridging equipment from all over Russia comes in to play. Everything is bottle-necking at the crossing.

They plan to open a pontoon bridge across the Kerch Straights for light vehicles, while reserving the ferry space for heavy trucks, buses, and pedestrians.

There was also an article about the Ferry company trying to lease another ferry from Greece a few days ago.


18 posted on 05/10/2014 9:06:09 AM PDT by tcrlaf (Q)
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To: Mariner
That's not to say we shouldn't keep talking about it...but I'm not sure it applies to the events of today.

I think the point of the argument is that Putin himself was educated by and dedicated to, the same regime that perpetrated the unthinkable barbarities and genocide on Ukraine. Therefore his mind and sensibilities we cannot expect to be what we consider sane and normal.... Putin was raised as, and still is, a barbarian.

It would be as if the Prime Minister of modern Germany was raised a Nazi, and had been a Gestapo officer, and had stated that the fall of the 3rd Reich was the worst catastrophe in the 20th Century.... (this never happened and is unthinkable in post-war Germany). Still, if we imagine that, there's no doubt we would be thinking that such a leader would still be a dangerous heartless Nazi in his heart.

Similarly, Putin--ex-high-ranking KGB officer--is still a Russian Nationalist (if not necessarily a Communist), raised with barbarous and brutal totalitarian assumptions on the role of government--who would no-doubt defend Stalin's genocide in Ukraine. In comparison, he's being mild there....

Putin-as-unreformed-barbarian is the real problem.

19 posted on 05/10/2014 9:13:03 AM PDT by AnalogReigns (Real life is ANALOG!)
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To: Mariner
The cold war horses on FR latch onto anything which will support their cold war mindset...something our military leaders have stated many times creates problems that aren't there, and cause issues in the Ukraine situation which wouldn't be so if they weren't in that mindset.

The water situation in Crimea is because the Kiev Gov. ha cut off their main water sources...though they deny it there is more than ample proof this is so with satellite photos showing so as well as on the ground showing the sandbags...and the former water levels clearly.

I really wish there was someway to get these old cold war guys from causing such problems, not only here on FR but as well in the leadership making decisions and creating tensions with those who need to do so.

As the military leaders have mentioned...difficult to communicate with them because they can't see Russia as it is today, nor it's people, nor Putin in the light he needs to be seen....let alone the situation in Ukraine and how the Eu/Nato/US is operating in the field. They are blinded by their mindset of the old cold war days...and prior.

Currently Nato and the Think tanks are attempting to arrive at a way diplomatically that will save face for Putin and the US and NATO...as they are keenly aware, and have from the start, that Russia is a sovereign power and needs to continue to be incorporated with International decisions in the future.

*** Interesting from "Sec of Defense Gates" who stated in his Memoir.....

..."Trying to bring Georgia and Ukraine into NATO was truly overreaching....... The roots of the Russian Empire trace back to Kiev in the ninth century, so that was an especially "monumental provocation"......... Were the Europeans, much less the Americans, willing to send their sons and daughters to defend Ukraine or Georgia? Hardly...........NATO expansion was a 'political act', not a carefully considered 'military commitment',........ thus..... undermining the purpose of the alliance and recklessly ignoring what the Russians considered their own vital national interests.”

52 posted on 05/13/2014 5:03:00 PM PDT by caww
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To: Mariner
The cold war horses on FR latch onto anything which will support their cold war mindset...something our military leaders have stated many times creates problems that aren't there, and cause issues in the Ukraine situation which wouldn't be so if they weren't in that mindset.

The water situation in Crimea is because the Kiev Gov. ha cut off their main water sources...though they deny it there is more than ample proof this is so with satellite photos showing so as well as on the ground showing the sandbags...and the former water levels clearly.

I really wish there was someway to get these old cold war guys from causing such problems, not only here on FR but as well in the leadership making decisions and creating tensions with those who need to do so.

As the military leaders have mentioned...difficult to communicate with them because they can't see Russia as it is today, nor it's people, nor Putin in the light he needs to be seen....let alone the situation in Ukraine and how the Eu/Nato/US is operating in the field. They are blinded by their mindset of the old cold war days...and prior.

Currently Nato and the Think tanks are attempting to arrive at a way diplomatically that will save face for Putin and the US and NATO...as they are keenly aware, and have from the start, that Russia is a sovereign power and needs to continue to be incorporated with International decisions in the future.

*** Interesting from "Sec of Defense Gates" who stated in his Memoir.....

..."Trying to bring Georgia and Ukraine into NATO was truly overreaching....... The roots of the Russian Empire trace back to Kiev in the ninth century, so that was an especially "monumental provocation"......... Were the Europeans, much less the Americans, willing to send their sons and daughters to defend Ukraine or Georgia? Hardly...........NATO expansion was a 'political act', not a carefully considered 'military commitment',........ thus..... undermining the purpose of the alliance and recklessly ignoring what the Russians considered their own vital national interests.”

53 posted on 05/13/2014 5:03:01 PM PDT by caww
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