Russia warns Ukraine of ‘irreversible consequences’ after cross-border shelling

Wash Post ^ | 7-13-2014 | Karoun Demirjian and Michael Birnbaum

[caww]

Some really nasty shelling of Lugansk today...July 14, 2014...Kiev’s taking advantage of the distraction of the news over what’s happening in Gaza and just hammering Lugansk.

https://www.youtatch?vube.com/w=11L8cOk00So#t=32

[caww]

Try this instead:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=11L8cOk00So#t=32

[Pining_4_TX]

If the Russians get as far as our shores, it’s over anyway. Europe should pony up for its own defense. Honestly, it seems all the large nation states are disintegrating, even our own. We are in for some chaotic times when our biggest worries will not be old cold war foes, but increasing numbers of small groups of terrorists who will be much harder to contain.

[free_life]

Nice try, but we is clear it was the puppet president and other cronies the Russian intel services had in the Ukraine govt that were the root of corruption. Most are now gone but I suspect there are still more to be found.

[free_life]

I don’t have to prove they are false, there is no proof they are ethnic.

There has been so much Russian bullshite propaganda, and also time after time proof the Putin fan club here are FR are feeding false information, that nothing coming from Russian sources can be believed. You bunch have filled this forum with lies for months that there is no reason to believe anything you post. When it has been shown your claims or pics or videos are false you disappear into another thread to start again. You are a bunch of Russian tools and have been proven to be liars time and time again. There is that plain enough for you?! You may think we are idiots here at FR but you are not fooling anyone with your propaganda. I would not be surprised in the least that some of you are on the Russian intel service payroll.

AND as I already said the referendum was a farce held by an occupying Russian force, that no one dared oppose. The result of the bogus referendum was decided before a single ballot was cast.

It is like the Mexican govt invading southern California with little green men who claim to be Mexican Americans living in California and holding a referendum at gunpoint to separate from the US. No one with an IQ over 40 is buying it.

[caww]

There is no Putin Fan Club here on Free Republic except in your own mind and a few others. ......But we can certainly celebrate any peoples for their self-determination.....You all just like conflict on FR and are quick to get it started by the crap you spew toward other Freepers.

Russian people celebrate in the central square in Sevastopol, Ukraine, early Monday, March 17, 2014. Russian flags fluttered above jubilant crowds Sunday after residents in Crimea voted overwhelmingly to secede from Ukraine and join Russia.

[caww]

....”root of corruption. Most are now gone”....

Yea, right....while Poroshanko and Yats continue to fill positions with the same ol’ Oligarch Dynasty ....including themselves.

[Paul R.]

The pics are genuine, I believe (not that I trust much from “our own news agencies”!) However, I could have taken dozens of shots of people where I worked at the time, celebrating the outcome of the OJ murder trial. From the noise, you’d have thought 90+ % of the company was delighted. But... Those pics & the celebration would certainly not be representative of most employees, most of whom just shook their heads and kept at their tasks.

What governments, if not allies of Putin or under Putin’s thumb, have accepted the Crimean “election” as legitimate?

I’d also point out that this “self-determination” you applaud, as it is occurring increasingly now, has very dangerous aspects. Countries usually fight very hard to prevent fragmentation, for very good reasons that go well beyond the well-being of whomever happens to be in power at the time (tho’ I’ll grant that is a “surface factor” in most cases too.)

If, say, Wisconsin elected to join Canada, should the USA just let them do so? Or New Mexico —>> Mexico?

[Paul R.]

You may not have seen my previous posts in other threads: The biggest threat is not small groups of terrorists, neither is it Russia or China (at least not directly vs. the U.S.) or some sort of Islamic Caliphate.

The real threat is the breakdown of the post Cold War security structure, in which all the more-or-less fangless or defanged medium size powers remained that way, Russia was diminished and mostly concerned with events inside the borders of the old USSR, China was mostly concerned with economic growth and events along its borders, and the US was the only real dog with the size and teeth to keep order, along with modest assistance from the reliable Brits and some others. (Nothing since WW2 has cost us sacrifice remotely close to that of WW2, and it's important to note that the US got by relatively lightly even in WW2.)

With the practical demise of the US as the big dog to maintain order of sorts, the future is disastrous. Medium powers (like Japan) are moving toward re-armament, Saudi Arabia is #4 or #5 on the list of military spending in absolute $$, China is arming, Russia is more aggressive, India and Pakistan certainly are not slowing down (and might I add there are something like 30 countries considered capable of joining the nuclear "club" relatively quickly -- topping the list surely are Japan, Korea, Taiwan, Ukraine (once the 3rd largest nuke power in the world), Saudi Arabia (purchase power), etc.)

An aside: Europe should pony up for its own defense? Well, if they want to pay us to defend them, I'm ok with that. Europe capable of defending itself? Review the prior century, please. Or this one (French / English involvement in toppling the Gov't of Libya, and their reasons for getting us involved as well, is a good place to start.) Under their thin, slime covered skin of "superior civilization", the Euro's, should their soft comfortable lifestyle be threatened, are incredibly dangerous. (Their reluctance to follow Christ and lack of belief in freedom [Freeper style] are a big part of that.) But I digress.

I expect at least a modest size nuclear war in the next 50 years. With so many players / antagonists, it's inevitable. Say, an exchange of about 50 - 100 warheads total. Odds are, the US will not be a nuke shooter, or shot at, and the odds are better yet we won't be hit (by then we should be able to shoot down up to 50 incoming missiles, maybe more.) But the odds of worldwide economic collapse are very high, and the odds of the US getting fallout to the tune of hundreds of thousands of US deaths, or more, are pretty good, too.

[Paul R.]

Let me rephrase something from my last post:

“Under their thin, slime covered skin of “superior civilization”, the Euro’s, if well armed, are incredibly dangerous, should their soft/comfortable lifestyle be threatened.”

[Paul R.]

Interesting map. I don't know how unbiased it might be, and it's several days old, but from what I gather, it does give a good general idea of the situation and what Ukraine is trying to accomplish.

http://www.angelfire.com/extreme4/kiddofspeed/maydan/karta1.jpg

Russians, supplies, and equipment are pouring across the gap in the Ukraine "pincer", and presently it seems to be a stalemate. Ukraine, from their standpoint, MUST close that gap (even if they for now cede some territory along the border). In addition, they either need to control the airports in separatist hands or destroy them.

However, tactically, it would appear Putin and his boys are in a precarious position. Checking online maps, the only really good road left in to the rebels region from Russia is at Krasnodon: If Ukraine secures that, and can hold it and the other major crossings, Putin would have to launch a major Russian cross-border operation to rescue his buddies. So far, despite posturing, he has not shown he really wants to do that. Putin doesn't mind separatist casualties, as they make for good propaganda. But heavy Russian casualties could become a problem.

Politically, Putin has a mess on his hands. Ukraine is showing it will fight, and is willing to sustain casualties (hardly surprising, given their history.) They (Ukraine) are capable of self-supplying much of their own armaments, and as they gradually get into "fighting shape", are a formidable opponent, much larger than Afghanistan. Putin has re-ignited old Euro fears, and Europe for it's part, for now, need only prop up Ukraine economically: One could argue that further sanctions are not needed, so long as Ukraine is capable of bloodying Russia.

Ukraine's biggest problem may be time. Can Ukraine get through this next winter?