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Sherman in Gaza [VDH]
National Review ^ | 8/20/2014 | Victor Davis Hanson

Posted on 08/20/2014 5:31:44 AM PDT by Servant of the Cross

His march through Georgia has been gravely misunderstood ― as has Israel’s strategy in Gaza.

William Tecumseh Sherman 150 years ago took Atlanta before heading out on his infamous March to the Sea to make Georgia “howl.” He remains one of the most controversial and misunderstood figures in American military history. Sherman was an attritionist, not an annihilationist — a strategist who believed in attacking the sources that fuel and field an army rather than butting heads against the army itself. To review his career is to shed light on why the Israeli Defense Forces were both effective in Gaza and hated even more for being so effective.

Much of the South has hated William Tecumseh Sherman for over a century and a half, but not because his huge army killed thousands of young Confederate soldiers (it did not). Grant did that well enough in the horrific summer of 1864 outside Richmond. Rather, Sherman humiliated the plantationist class by staging three long marches during the last twelve months of the Civil War — from Tennessee to Atlanta, from Atlanta to Savannah, and from Savannah up through the Carolinas. In each of these brilliantly conducted invasions, Sherman, with a few notable exceptions, sought to avoid direct fighting with Confederate forces, either outflanking opposing armies that popped up in his way, or entrenching and letting aggressors wear themselves out against his fortified lines. He did enormous material damage, as he boasted that his enemies could do nothing to impede his progress — humiliation being central to his mission.

Instead of fighting pitched battles, Sherman was interested in three larger strategic agendas. War in his mind was not a struggle between militaries so much as between the willpower of entire peoples ....

(Excerpt) Read more at nationalreview.com ...


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Foreign Affairs; Government; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: gaza; hamas; israel; sherman; vdh; victordavishanson
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1 posted on 08/20/2014 5:31:44 AM PDT by Servant of the Cross
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To: Deb; Sir Napsalot; Kaslin; neverdem; EXCH54FE; 2ndDivisionVet; Rummyfan; smoothsailing; Hojczyk; ...
VDH ping ... Viva Israel!


2 posted on 08/20/2014 5:33:37 AM PDT by Servant of the Cross (the Truth will set you free)
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To: Servant of the Cross

There are a lot of Southerners on Free Republic. You’re not likelly to win much support for a thread celebrating Sherman’s genius.


3 posted on 08/20/2014 5:40:09 AM PDT by IronJack
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To: Servant of the Cross

Great general.

“War is the remedy that our enemies have chosen, and I say let us give them all they want.”

4 posted on 08/20/2014 5:42:10 AM PDT by Rummyfan (Iraq: it's not about Iraq anymore, it's about the USA!)
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To: Rummyfan

A some point, after all of the history, intellectualizing and analysis, you simply fight for your own tribe. I am a Southerner. I do not care much for Sherman.


5 posted on 08/20/2014 5:45:50 AM PDT by Blennos
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To: Blennos

At some point...


6 posted on 08/20/2014 5:47:13 AM PDT by Blennos
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To: IronJack

not just southerners...ex-yankees, thinkers, etc!!!

;)
Dick.G: AMERICAN!
aka: Gunny G
*****


7 posted on 08/20/2014 5:48:15 AM PDT by gunnyg ("A Constitution changed from Freedom, can never be restored; Liberty, once lost, is lost forever...)
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To: IronJack

I am a native Southerner (waiting for the accusations to fly).

I admire Sherman only in that he determined what needed to be done and then did it—with brutal efficiency—likely ending the war sooner than otherwise.

Patton was cut from the same cloth.


8 posted on 08/20/2014 5:50:07 AM PDT by Arm_Bears (Rope. Tree. Politician. Some assembly required.)
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To: Servant of the Cross
Sherman was obsessed with separating bellicose enemy rhetoric from facts on the ground. He believed that unless humiliation was a part of defeat, a tribal society of ranked hierarchies would always concoct myths to explain away failure.

Certainly applicable today too.

9 posted on 08/20/2014 5:54:00 AM PDT by Rummyfan (Iraq: it's not about Iraq anymore, it's about the USA!)
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To: Rummyfan

“War is the remedy that our enemies have chosen, and I say let us give them all they want.”

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

Oh, for leadership like that today. Please, God, bring us leaders like Sherman. In Jesus’ Name. Amen.


10 posted on 08/20/2014 5:55:40 AM PDT by Eccl 10:2 (Prov 3:5 --- "Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding")
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To: IronJack
True dat .... Lincoln was the worst tyrant in U.S. history and his war was illegal, immoral, unconstitutional. / s

This VDH article is about successful tactics in a war and that the IDF is waging its war against Hamas with true genius.

And yes, it is still possible that this turns into a re-litigating the civil war thread ....

11 posted on 08/20/2014 5:55:58 AM PDT by Servant of the Cross (the Truth will set you free)
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To: IronJack

They say Adolph Hitler was very intelligent too. Attributing the IDF tactics to W.T. Sherman is a joke. Sherman’s ethos was the opposite of Israel’s.


12 posted on 08/20/2014 5:59:49 AM PDT by Tzfat
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To: Servant of the Cross

Ancient Chinese military strategist Sun Tsu said that the real target of the general is not the enemy’s army. The real target is to destroy the enemy’s willingness to fight you.


13 posted on 08/20/2014 6:00:45 AM PDT by PapaBear3625 (You don't notice it's a police state until the police come for you.)
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To: Arm_Bears
God bless 'The South'. Without the conservative base in the South, there would be no more America. The godless socialist democrats would have the entire country looking like Atlanta after Sherman went through it ... Exhibit A: Detroit.


14 posted on 08/20/2014 6:04:52 AM PDT by Servant of the Cross (the Truth will set you free)
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To: Servant of the Cross

amen that


15 posted on 08/20/2014 6:06:29 AM PDT by Hegewisch Dupa
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To: Tzfat

“They” who? Give Nazi weapons of the time to someone even of average intelligence and WWII becomes orders of magnitude tougher for the Allies to win. Certainly no unconditional surrender in ‘45. Hitler was a military moron, thank God.


16 posted on 08/20/2014 6:11:19 AM PDT by Hegewisch Dupa
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To: Servant of the Cross; Allegra; big'ol_freeper; Lil'freeper; shove_it; TrueKnightGalahad; ...
What continues to amaze me even as I enter my late 60s is the lack of knowledge supposed 'in the know' media & government folks have on the Civil War. They also have the same the same IQ for the rest of history, to press the point--

Since we have unionized the American school system, there are no more 'teachers,' only 'educators.' The average student nowadays know less and less history with each passing year and what they are actually taught in the classroom from Kindergarten to Grad School is not actual history but rather different shades of leftest opinion squeezed more and more by the changing political correctness of the unions' patron, the Democrat Party.

As we see happening in Ferguson, it ain't what actually happened that matters... it is how much loot there is and how it can fill the coffers of the race baiting Democrat Party.

17 posted on 08/20/2014 6:16:04 AM PDT by Bender2 ("I've got a twisted sense of humor, and everything amuses me." RAH Beyond this Horizon)
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To: Servant of the Cross

Sherman isn’t hated in the South for “humiliating” the plantation class. He’s hated for deeds such as burning down Columbia, SC.


18 posted on 08/20/2014 6:26:34 AM PDT by Fiji Hill
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To: Hegewisch Dupa
You must have missed the point, because you are arguing over something I did not say. The Germans were able to bring the world to an unprecedented world wide war. That indicates something intelligent. Hitler's "success" is no recipe for any sane person to emulate because the motivation was evil. Likewise, Sherman's "success" had an ethics-challenged motivation that the Israeli IDF, the most ethical military force in history, does not share.

I can promise you that Sherman is studying at the IDF war college, but not in order to emulate him.
19 posted on 08/20/2014 6:36:38 AM PDT by Tzfat
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To: Hegewisch Dupa
You must have missed the point, because you are arguing over something I did not say. The Germans were able to bring the world to an unprecedented world wide war. That indicates something intelligent. Hitler's "success" is no recipe for any sane person to emulate because the motivation was evil. Likewise, Sherman's "success" had an ethics-challenged motivation that the Israeli IDF, the most ethical military force in history, does not share.

I can promise you that Sherman is studying at the IDF war college, but not in order to emulate him.
20 posted on 08/20/2014 6:36:39 AM PDT by Tzfat
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To: IronJack
Truth seekers accept truth wherever it presents itself.

As usual, Victor Davis Hanson provides keen insights and a thorough understanding of the subject matter.

Sherman was obviously a military genius. It is true that he destroyed the Southern economy and institutions so violently that it took over a century to recover. However, he did not slaughter the people; for this he is to be commended.

The greatest mistake of the Confederacy is that it did not free the slaves and appeal to the British Empire for deliverance. Secession was legal.

21 posted on 08/20/2014 6:41:43 AM PDT by Savage Beast (Hubris and denial overwhelm Western Civilization. Nemesis and tragedy always follow.)
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To: Servant of the Cross
"God bless 'The South'. Without the conservative base in the South, there would be no more America. The godless socialist democrats would have the entire country looking like Atlanta after Sherman went through it ... Exhibit A: Detroit."

Amen.

22 posted on 08/20/2014 6:44:29 AM PDT by Savage Beast (Hubris and denial overwhelm Western Civilization. Nemesis and tragedy always follow.)
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To: Servant of the Cross
Excellent post SotC.....

VDH stuns me with his insight - Sherman was hated because he humiliated the south by driving thru their territory with impunity - not only cutting off their 'bullets and beans ' but showing the folly of continuing .

23 posted on 08/20/2014 6:47:53 AM PDT by virgil283 (Life is hard .....its harder if you re stupid.... - John Wayne)
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To: Arm_Bears
The Patton family were confederates who got the hell out of Virginia and went to California right after the war. In fact, he had two Uncles who died fighting for the Confederacy at Gettysburg.

It is sad that Patton (our second Greatest General behind Washington) would never make it past corporal in Obama’s PC military.

24 posted on 08/20/2014 6:56:13 AM PDT by ohioman
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To: Savage Beast

I agree. God Bless the South.


25 posted on 08/20/2014 6:58:17 AM PDT by ohioman
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To: IronJack

Sherman was a traitor. He was from Louisiana. In fact, he founded LSU. This is why he left the plantations in Louisiana alone.


26 posted on 08/20/2014 8:00:49 AM PDT by sportutegrl
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To: Tzfat
I would argue that Sherman was far more ethical than any of his contemporaries on either side. The purpose of an army is to kill people and break things. Sherman on his march minimized the killing part and maximized the breaking part.

History shows that Sherman's march through Georgia and the Carolinas brought that war to an end far sooner than it would have otherwise. And he did it with far fewer deaths than others would have.

27 posted on 08/20/2014 8:11:22 AM PDT by Ditto
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To: sportutegrl

Traitor?! There’s more crying in baseball than traitors in The Civil War. Sherman simply chose to succeed from the Confederacy, as was his God-given right.


28 posted on 08/20/2014 8:13:36 AM PDT by Hegewisch Dupa
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To: sportutegrl

Sherman was born and raised in Ohio. Shortly before the war he was appointed president of a school that would much later become LSU. When states began seceding, military men had to choose weather to stay loyal to their oaths to the Union and the Constitution or to side with the rebellion. Sherman chose the Constitution.

As for burning plantations in Louisiana, I don’t think he ever set foot there during the war. In fact, Louisiana was pretty much out of the war after the fall of Vicksburg and union control of the Mississippi in the summer of 1863. It would make no sense to burn anything there since none of their goods went to the Confederate side.


29 posted on 08/20/2014 8:29:50 AM PDT by Ditto
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To: Ditto

Study W.T. Sherman the man sometime. You might change your mind about his “ethics”.


30 posted on 08/20/2014 8:31:42 AM PDT by Tzfat
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To: Servant of the Cross

Sherman was Jewish????

Who knew LOL!


31 posted on 08/20/2014 8:35:11 AM PDT by SevenofNine (We are Freepers, all your media bases belong to us ,resistance is futile)
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To: Servant of the Cross

This one is a keeper.


32 posted on 08/20/2014 8:35:39 AM PDT by NonValueAdded ("Kerry, as Obama's plenipotentiary, is a paradox - the physical presence of a geopolitical absence")
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To: Bender2

Hey Bender I know what you mean

My teenage cousin had teacher who believe Alaska was part of Russia STILL

When I hear that I march down the school rip F-bomb on her a***

That very true story

After that teacher kept her mouth shut about anything about Alaska so Sarah Palin my time in Alaska and Deadliest catch series mention of it

It ban at this school SERIOUSLY LOL!


33 posted on 08/20/2014 8:37:33 AM PDT by SevenofNine (We are Freepers, all your media bases belong to us ,resistance is futile)
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To: Tzfat
I have studied him. He was a good soldier and a good man who served his nation loyally. I guess the Nazis didn't much like Patton or Eisenhower either. ;~]
34 posted on 08/20/2014 8:47:04 AM PDT by Ditto
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To: Ditto

Real funny. Compare Robert E. Lee’s admiration and support in the North after the war, versus W.T. Sherman’s denigration in the South. Sherman was a creep who in his own memoirs admitted to a certain satisfaction in “making war” his way.


35 posted on 08/20/2014 9:01:03 AM PDT by Tzfat
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To: Tzfat

Saint Robert is mostly a post war myth created by the losers, as is the evil Sherman myth created by the same losers. Both men were good soldiers who served their causes loyally.

It would be better if you read real history instead of buying into the myths.


36 posted on 08/20/2014 9:15:31 AM PDT by Ditto
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To: Ditto

History? LOL. By your own admition, “history” is a myth created by the “winner.” How’s Lincoln’s America working out for you Yankee?


37 posted on 08/20/2014 9:32:04 AM PDT by Tzfat
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To: sportutegrl

He didn’t found LSU; he was its first superintendent. And he was never deployed in Louisiana.

He was actually born in Ohio.


38 posted on 08/20/2014 10:01:08 AM PDT by IronJack
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To: Tzfat

Lincolns America would work just fine if we still had it. We’re living in LBJ’s and FDR’s America and the solid south voted for both of them.


39 posted on 08/20/2014 11:14:27 AM PDT by Ditto
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To: Ditto

Tyrants borrow from each other. Lincoln was not the first, he just made it much easier for men like Wilson, FDR, Johnson, and Obama. Of course history-challenged folks like you pick and choose between “good” tyrants like Lincoln, and “bad” tyrants like FDR and LBJ.


40 posted on 08/20/2014 12:48:05 PM PDT by Tzfat
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To: Servant of the Cross
Not really worth posting. Or reading. Or writing.

First because of all the animosity that get stirred up.

Second, because the comparison is sketchy and not very clear or very close.

41 posted on 08/20/2014 1:05:24 PM PDT by x
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To: Servant of the Cross

William Tecumseh Sherman 150 years ago took Atlanta..

***

He borrowed just long enough for the Confederates to destroy it.


42 posted on 08/20/2014 1:17:09 PM PDT by Moonman62 (The US has become a government with a country, rather than a country with a government.)
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To: Tzfat
History ignorant people like you assign fault where none is due.

Talk about Federal overreach, what the hell was the Fugitive Slave Act? The first time Congress interfered with state laws and the first time Federal law could force citizens to bow to their will.

You have selective history comprehension.

In 1860, most people knew secession would bring war. Your claims that “Secession is legal” were not the majority opinion even then. The only question then was if the loyal states would stand up to it or not. The arrogant Slave Power guessed wrong just as smart Southern leaders like Sam Houston warned them.

When the idiot Jeff Davis ordered the firing on Sumter, he drove the loyal states into supporting war. The other thing that amazes me about you guys is that you think that the US has sucked for the last 150 years. Why the hell are you still here if it sucks so bad?

43 posted on 08/20/2014 5:28:33 PM PDT by Ditto
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To: Ditto

Why am I here? I’m living in the South. Your ignorance about Sumter is typical. Public school?


44 posted on 08/20/2014 6:39:41 PM PDT by Tzfat
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To: Tzfat

What is my “ignorance” about Sumter? Please tell all wise guru.


45 posted on 08/21/2014 7:07:59 AM PDT by Ditto
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To: Ditto
The dialogue is slightly reminiscent of this one ....

The Civil War's over man ... (for almost 150 years now!) .... Sherman dropped the big one ...

NOTHING is over until WE say it is ............

46 posted on 08/21/2014 7:43:55 AM PDT by Servant of the Cross (the Truth will set you free)
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To: Servant of the Cross

I’m still waiting for you to detail my ignorance about the events at Sumter.


47 posted on 08/21/2014 7:54:48 AM PDT by Ditto
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To: Ditto; Tzfat
I’m still waiting for you to detail my ignorance about the events at Sumter.

Um, nope. That would be Tzfat, not I.

48 posted on 08/21/2014 10:37:07 AM PDT by Servant of the Cross (the Truth will set you free)
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To: Hegewisch Dupa

“Hitler was a military moron, thank God.”

I on one of the NYT daily WWII threads that by mid 1944 the allies had no intention of trying to kill Hitler as he was too valuable for our side to lose.


49 posted on 08/25/2014 4:18:49 PM PDT by Rebelbase
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To: Ditto

“The purpose of an army is to kill people and break things. “

That’s a clever quip by a talk show host, it’s not military science. The purpose of an army is to impose your will, it’s an extension of politics. This can be accomplished by blockades and sieges. The first strategic move by the Union was Scott’s Anaconda, the blockade of southern ports.

Fans of Sherman and the Union in general should keep in mind that American citizens were the targets of their violence. Lincoln denied that the Confederacy existed. In his view there were no “Confederate citizens”, there were only rebellious citizens of the United States. And Congress didn’t declare war. It funded Lincoln’s use of the army to suppress an insurrection by American citizens in rebellious American states.

Someday a President like an Obama might declare that Americans who refuse to follow his executive orders are in rebellion. And in need of the sort of correction that was used in the past. Lincoln raised the army and blockaded ports and suspended habeus corpus all on his own, while Congress was not in session. If a President were to do this again I wonder if he would get his own Temple built in Washington DC and be hailed as the best President ever?


50 posted on 09/14/2014 1:35:48 AM PDT by Pelham (California, what happens when you won't deport illegals)
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