[Clintonfatigued]

This is not a topic I have much knowledge about. It would probably be useful reading for Freepers.

[BenLurkin]

values reminiscent of our own

Slavery, paganism, cruelty and debauchery?

Not MY values.

[GingisK]

The Romans elected a tyrant, just like the Germans in 1938. People in the US are perfectly capable, and apparently willing, to do exactly the same thing.

[razorback-bert]

ping

[onedoug]

More Judeo-Christian than Roman in our values. At least it was once.

[Fiji Hill]

Another book on the subject that I found authoritative was Death of a Republic: Politics and Political Thought at Rome, 59-44 BC by John Dickinson (New York: Macmillan, 1963), which tells the story of how Julius Caesar maneuvered his way to power and overcame sprited opposition from Marcus Cicero, Cato the Younger, etc. who tried to save the republic.

[Billthedrill]

Complicated topic, as the review indicates. The author reminds us that Caesar was blamed for a lot of changes that took place one political generation behind him, by Marius and Sulla. At that point in history the Republic was not any sort of republic that would be recognizable by today's standards, and Caesar's assassination accomplished nothing at all toward its "restoration", hard as it might be to imagine what that restoration might have looked like.

That Rome was considered a Republic during the accession to power of Octavian/Augustus and quite for some time afterward was an artifact of Augustus' pure political genius. Primus inter pares he was most certainly not, and if the fiction was maintained by mutual agreement it was still fiction. By the time Caligula popped up it was no longer even that.

The Roman ideals popularized by such authors as Livy and Machiavelli were changing cultural norms spaced out over a period of around 500 years; one suspects that some at least are as "idealized" and distilled as the story of Washington and the cherry tree: illustrative but not entirely historical. And yet some of them - Cincinatus, Horatio at the bridge, a host of others - were not merely heroic but acted upon. One can dismiss either too little or too much in this sort of characterization.

But it's human history: an imperfect monarchy giving way to in imperfect Republic giving way to an imperfect Empire that was in reality the monarchy redux. If we're careful with the parallels we can learn a lot from them.

[Adder]

1. Rome was not a democracy. It was a republic. The fall of the republic started before 100bc.
2. The fight between Sulla and Marius accelerated the fall, as did the corruption ofthe Senatorial ranks.
3. Caesar was a brilliant political and military mind. He had no constituency among the nobles so he championed the cause of the plebs.
4. Do not forget that Pompey, Crass us and Caesar.

You can probably date the fall of the Republic from any of these spots.

[QBFimi]

Pick up a copy of “How the West Won” by Rodney Stark. Heard him on Prager. Couldn’t put it down!

[Yollopoliuhqui]

Rome was a republic in name only. The reality was that the republic was run by a handful of oligarchs, much like the world today. The oligarchs ripped off the land owners, overly taxed the productive classes and lived like arrogant pigs. Ceasar didn’t boot them because of a personal lust for power, but because of their incessant looting of the commonweal was resulting in Rome’s destruction. Had Ceasar not been assassinated, there was a good chance that he’d return to republican rule once he rid the Senate of its parasites, imbeciles and egomaniacs.

Trump could play a similar role. The Dems are apoplectic for the same reasons. Keeping Trump alive will be a job for all of us.