Conservative vs Liberal, a history of terms and discussion.

Hayak - "The Road to Serfdom" | 1956, 1994 | Hayek

[dynoman]

Since people here are getting hung up on the word "conservative" I thought a historical explanation from Hayek would be appropriate.

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"The fact that this book was originally written with only the British public in mind does not appear to have seriously affected its intelligibility for the American reader. But there is one point of phraseology which I ought to explain here to forestall any misunderstanding. I use throughout the term "liberal" in the original, nineteenth-century sense in which it is still current in Britain. In current American usage it often means very nearly the opposite of this. It has been part of the camouflage of leftish movements in this country, helped by the muddleheadedness of many who really believe in liberty, that "liberal" has come to mean the advocacy of almost every kind of government control. I am still puzzled why those in the United States who truly believe in liberty should not only have allowed the left to appropriate this almost indispensable term but should even have assisted by beginning to use it themselves as a term of opprobrium. This seems to be particularly regrettable because of the consequent tendency of many true liberals to describe themselves as conservatives.

It is true, of course, that in the struggle against the believers in the all-powerful state the true liberal must sometimes make common cause with the conservative, and in some circumstances, as in contemporary Britain, he has hardly any other way of actively working for his ideals. But true liberalism is still distinct from conservatism, and there is danger in the two being confused. Conservatism, though a necessary element in any stable society, is not a social program; in its paternalistic, nationalistic, and power-adorning tendencies it is often closer to socialism than true liberalism; and with its traditionalistic, anti-intellectual, and often mystical propensities it will never, except in short periods of disillusionment, appeal to the young and all those others who believe that some changes are desirable if this world is to become a better place. A conservative movement, by its very nature, is bound to be a defender of established privilege and to lean on the power of government for the protection of privilege. The essence of the liberal position, however, is the denial of all privilege, if privilege is understood in its proper and original meaning of the state granting and protecting rights to some which are not available on equal terms to others."(1)

"I use the term "liberal" in the nineteenth-century sense of limited government and free markets, not in the corrupted sense it has acquired in the United States, in which it means almost the opposite." (2)

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(1) Entire passage from The Road to Serfdom, F. A. Hayek, 1956 preface. (2) this quote from the 1994 introduction by Milton Friedman.

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[dynoman]

To be accurate we "conservatives" really are classic liberals.

After you have read and thought that through read what Laz wrote here -->> http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/3372298/posts?page=85#85

Click through and read his post "Elitist vs. Populist".

I'm interested in what you all think of all that in the context of this election especially as it relates to the assertions made here on FR that;

1) Trump is not a conservative.

2) Cruz is a thoroughbred conservative.

[T-Bone Texan]

Todays’ liberals are in fact traitors to the Constitution and our way of life.

There can be no equivocation about it.

They would gladly destroy me and my family if it furthered their agenda.

I’m not OK with that.

[wideawake]

I almost never use the word "liberal" to describe Democrats.

They prefer the term "progressives" but the correct term is simply "leftist" or "socialist."

Now American conservatives, who are indeed "classical liberals", aren't really on "the Right" in the original European sense of the term.

[Old Sarge]

Liberals wish conservatives dead.

That’s all I need to know.

[dynoman]

This is why I’m not bothered by people saying Trump and those who support him aren’t conservatives. Conservative and liberal are a words that have practically lost their meanings. Much like republican states being colored red and democrat states colored blue. It’s the elitists/totalitarians that did that, they are the enemy of we-the-people, always have been, always will be.

[chrisser]

I find it’s easier to use none of those terms.

I prefer individualist and statist. The label may apply to a person differently depending on the issue, but the heart of the matter is whether decision making power should rest in the hands of the individual or in that of the state.

[dynoman]

Laz narrowed it down to populist (The People) vs elitism.

I would further define it as; elitist/totalitarianism vs populist/freedom.

[cripplecreek]

Progressive isn’t a right/left designation.

Teddy Roosevelt was a “right progressive” who talked tough on things like border control but supported eugenics, seized land for the feds by the millions of acres, and targeted business with higher taxes.

[nikos1121]

Someone posted a better term for Trump, he’s a Patriot.

I suppose you can say that just about all conservatives are patriots, but not all liberals are patriots and not all democrats are patriots.

The liberals and democrats out there who are patriots will vote for Trump.

Name a liberal patriot? Name a liberal democrat? I’d like to think someone like Kirstin Powers will vote for Trump, or at least NOT vote for Hillary on the abortion issue alone.

You have numerous Hispanics and Blacks who are probably democrats but are going to go with Trump.

[wideawake]

Exactly right.

[snarkpup]

To be accurate we "conservatives" really are classic liberals.

Hayek views political space as more of a triangle rather than a one-dimensional spectrum. He puts "conservative" and "classical liberal" on two of the corners, with what would be called "progressive" at the third. Read more here:

"Why I Am Not a Conservative," by F. A. Hayek, from The Constitution of Liberty

[NFHale]

There are Americans...
and then there are Liberals.

And that sums it up.

[Duchess47]

I no longer support “conservatives”, at least those that campaign on that label. In my state, I voted for and helped elect a “conservative” Congressman, a “conservative” Senator and a “conservative” Governor.

They all lied to get elected, they all support big government, they all go along to get along. None of them have fulfilled their implied campaign promises.

Will not do that again, ever. Right now, “conservative” to me, means liar. At least liberals do fulfill their campaign promises although I won’t vote for them either.

[cripplecreek]

When it comes down to it, a Progressive is basically the opposite of a constitutionalist.

A constitutionalist sees America through a constitutional lens where they are constrained by constitutional limits if elected to office.

A progressive sees the same limits as obstacles to be overcome or knocked down in their push to get their way.

[tacticalogic]

At least liberals do fulfill their campaign promises

Like "If you like your doctor, you can keep your doctor." ?

[stephenjohnbanker]

“When it comes down to it, a Progressive is basically the opposite of a constitutionalist.”

Y E S

[cripplecreek]

And yes, I know “Constitutionalist” isn’t a real word but using the more accurate “Constructionist” just goes over the heads of most people.

[stephenjohnbanker]

Yeah....sadly....”most people”

[dynoman]

I see that is written using the original British definitions for conservative and liberal. The reader has to remember to switch the meanings when reading it.

For instance; “Conservatism proper is a legitimate, probably necessary, and certainly widespread attitude of opposition to drastic change.”

Opposition to drastic change or status quo is why we have a 19 trillion debt. At this point in time what is needed to cure that problem IS drastic change. No if’s, and’s, or but’s about it. What that means is a person advocating the drastic changes needed to take care of our debt is NOT a conservative. The case could be made that person is a progressive- i.e. for progress towards paying down or eliminating the debt. Progressives in America like Hillary and Bernie aren’t for that, they want to add to the debt. So progressive is a word that is practically meaningless too.

[cripplecreek]

I blame Hillsdale college for me.

I take all of their free online courses and have made friends among the faculty over the years.