[Bob434]

[[2.). Do you dispute that rising CO2 levels in the atmosphere are a lagging indicator to atmospheric temperatures (that temperatures increase first, causing CO2 outgassing from the ocean) and that the lag time is between 200-1200 years?]]

Precisely- proof positive that CO2 is not causign climate change- it can’t- the facts simply don’t support it-

It’s just simply stunning that the world has fallen for the lie that man is causing climate change- Not sure your religious beliefs, but The bible does talk about the end times where man will rather believe the lie than the truth

[[because they are almost always ideologues who aren’t interested in facts,]]

Exactly- Facts simply don’t matter to them- they just keep repeating the baseless mantra- over and over again- that is how indoctrination works- We are told things like ‘CO2 causes water vapor’ yet we are not given the % that we supposedly cause- and the fact that this water vapor is localized only, and not global is ignored- Heat rises, and always finds the paths of least resistance (ask any home builder, they will tell you how important it is to cover every possible means of escape so that heating bills aren’t through the roof- even a little spot around a window that isn’t insulated well will make a huge difference)- ie it finds the holes, where there is no cover, to escape- and the fact is the atmosphere is mostly all hole (Where there is no cloud cover), and it in no way stymied by areas where there is very very little cover (cloud cover I mean)-

It’s frustrating discussing this issue with those that have bought into the lie- because they have no math- no facts, only wide ranging unsupported claims-

[rlmorel]

All true. We make the mistake as conservatives of not attacking and deconstructing the underlying flawed foundations of Leftism.

We end up bickering with them over the huge edifices they have built on those unsound foundations, and so Leftism lives on and finds new followers all the time.

Man-caused climate change is a good example of that. If we allow them to get away with the premise (and we do) that rising CO2 levels due to human activity are directly related to:

Acne, agricultural land increase, Afghan poppies destroyed, Africa devastated, Africa in conflict, African aid threatened, African summer frost, aggressive weeds, air pressure changes, airport malaria, Agulhas current, Alaska reshaped, moves, allergy season longer, alligators in the Thames, Alps melting, Amazon a desert, American dream end, amphibians breeding earlier (or not), anaphylactic reactions to bee stings, ancient forests dramatically changed, animals head for the hills, animals shrink, Antarctic grass flourishes, Antarctic ice grows, Antarctic ice shrinks, Antarctic sea life at risk, anxiety treatment, algal blooms, archaeological sites threatened, Arctic bogs melt, Arctic in bloom, Arctic ice free, Arctic ice melt faster, Arctic lakes disappear, Arctic tundra to burn, Arctic warming (not), Atlantic less salty, Atlantic more salty, atmospheric circulation modified, attack of the killer jellyfish, avalanches reduced, avalanches increased, Baghdad snow, Bahrain under water, bananas grow, barbarisation, beer shortage, beetle infestation, bet for $10,000, better beer, big melt faster, billion dollar research projects, billion homeless, billions face risk, billions of deaths, bird distributions change, bird loss accelerating, birds shrinking, bird strikes, bird visitors drop, birds confused, birds decline (Wales), birds driven north, birds return early, bittern boom ends, blackbirds stop singing, blackbirds threatened, Black Hawk down, blood contaminated, blue mussels return, bluetongue, brain eating amoebae, brains shrink, bridge collapse (Minneapolis), Britain one big city, Britain Siberian, brothels struggle, brown Ireland, bubonic plague, budget increases, Buddhist temple threatened, building collapse, building season extension, bushfires, business opportunities, business risks, butterflies move north, camel deaths, cancer deaths in England,cannibalism, cannibalism again, caterpillar biomass shift, cave paintings threatened, childhood insomnia, Cholera, circumcision in decline, cirrus disappearance, civil unrest, cloud increase, coast beauty spots lost, cockroach migration, coffee threatened, cold climate creatures survive, cold spells (Australia), cold wave (India), computer models, conferences, conflict, conflict with Russia, consumers foot the bill, coral bleaching, coral fish suffer, coral reefs dying, coral reefs grow, coral reefs shrink , coral reefs twilight, cost of trillions, cougar attacks, crabgrass menace, cradle of civilisation threatened, creatures move uphill, crime increase, crocodile sex, crops devastated, crumbling roads, buildings and sewage systems, curriculum change, cyclones (Australia), danger to kid's health, Darfur, Dartford Warbler plague, death rate increase (US), deaths to reach 6 million, Dengue hemorrhagic fever, depression, desert advance, desert retreat, destruction of the environment, disappearance of coastal cities, disasters, diseases move from animals to humans, diseases move north, dog disease, Dolomites collapse, dozen deadly diseases, drought, ducks and geese decline, dust bowl in the corn belt, early marriages, early spring, earlier pollen season, Earth biodiversity crisis, Earth dying, Earth even hotter, Earth light dimming, Earth lopsided, Earth melting, Earth morbid fever, Earth on fast track, Earth past point of no return, Earth slowing down, Earth spins faster, Earth to explode, earth upside down, earthquakes, earthquakes redux, earthquakes redux 2, Egypt revolt, El Niño intensification, end of the world as we know it, erosion, emerging infections, encephalitis, English villages lost, equality threatened, Europe simultaneously baking and freezing, eutrophication, evolution accelerating, expansion of university climate groups, extinctions (human, civilisation, logic, Inuit, smallest butterfly, cod, ladybirds, pikas, polar bears, possums, walrus, toads, plants, salmon, trout, wild flowers, woodlice, a million species, half of all animal and plant species, mountain species, not polar bears, barrier reef, leaches, salamanders, tropical insects) experts muzzled, extreme changes to California, fading fall foliage, fainting, famine, farmers benefit, farmers go under, farm output boost, fashion disaster, fever, figurehead sacked, fir cone bonanza, fish bigger, fish catches drop, fish downsize, fish catches rise, fish deaf, fish get lost, fish head north, fish stocks at risk, fish stocks decline, five million illnesses, flames stoked, flesh eating disease, flood patterns change, floods, floods of beaches and cities, flood of migrants, flood preparation for crisis, Florida economic decline, flowers in peril, fog (more) in San Francisco, fog (less) in San Francisco, food poisoning, food prices rise, food prices soar, food security threat (SA), football team migration, footpath erosion, forest decline, forest expansion, frog with extra heads, frostbite, frost damage increased, frosts, fungi fruitful, fungi invasion, games change, Garden of Eden wilts, geese decline in Hampshire, genetic diversity decline, gene pools slashed, giant oysters invade, giant pythons invade, giant squid migrate, gingerbread houses collapse, glacial earthquakes, glacial retreat, glacial growth, glacier grows (California), glacier wrapped, global cooling, global dimming, glowing clouds, golf course to drown, golf Masters wrecked, grandstanding, grasslands wetter, Great Barrier Reef 95% dead, Great Lakes drop, great tits cope, greening of the North, Grey whales lose weight, Gulf Stream failure, habitat loss, haggis threatened, Hantavirus pulmonary syndrome, harmful algae, harvest increase, harvest shrinkage, hay fever epidemic, health affected, health of children harmed, health risks, heart disease, heart attacks and strokes (Australia), heat waves, hibernation affected, hibernation ends too soon, hibernation ends too late, HIV epidemic, homeless 50 million, hornets, high court debates, human development faces unprecedented reversal, human fertility reduced, human health risk, human race oblivion, hurricanes, hurricane reduction, hurricanes fewer, hurricanes not, hydropower problems, hyperthermia deaths, ice age, ice sheet growth, ice sheet shrinkage, icebergs, illegal immigration, illness and death, inclement weather, India drowning, infrastructure failure (Canada), industry threatened, infectious diseases, inflation in China, insect explosion, insurance premium rises, Inuit displacement, Inuit poisoned, Inuit suing, invasion of cats, invasion of crabgrass, invasion of herons, invasion of jellyfish, invasion of king crabs, invasion of midges, island disappears, islands sinking, itchier poison ivy, jellyfish explosion, jets fall from sky, jet stream drifts north, Kew Gardens taxed, kidney stones, kidney stones again, killer cornflakes, killing us, kitten boom, koalas under threat, krill decline, lake and stream productivity decline, lake empties, lake shrinking and growing, landslides, landslides of ice at 140 mph, lawsuits increase, lawsuit successful, lawyers' income increased (surprise surprise!), lawyers want more, legionnaires' surge, lives saved, Loch Ness monster dead, locust plagues suppressed, Lopsided Earth, lush growth in rain forests, Malaria, mammoth dung melt, mango harvest fails, Maple production advanced, Maple syrup shortage, marine diseases, marine food chain decimated, Meaching (end of the world), Mediterranean rises, megacryometeors, Melanoma, Melanoma decline, methane emissions from plants, methane burps, methane runaway, melting permafrost, Middle Kingdom convulses, migration, migration difficult (birds), migratory birds huge losses, microbes to decompose soil carbon more rapidly, minorities hit, monkeys on the move, Mont Blanc grows, monuments imperiled, moose dying, more bad air days, more research needed, mortality increased, mountain (Everest) shrinking, mountaineers fears, mountains break up, mountains green and flowering, mountains taller, mortality lower, Myanmar cyclone, narwhals at risk, National security implications, native wildlife overwhelmed, natural disasters quadruple, new islands, next ice age, NFL threatened, Nile delta damaged, noctilucent clouds, no effect in India, Northwest Passage opened, nuclear plants bloom, oaks dying, oaks move north, ocean acidification, ocean acidification faster, ocean dead zones unleashed, ocean deserts expand, ocean waves speed up, oceans noisier, opera house to be destroyed, outdoor hockey threatened, ozone repair slowed, ozone rise, Pacific dead zone, penguin chicks frozen, personal carbon rationing, pest outbreaks, pests increase, phenology shifts, plankton blooms, plankton destabilised, plants lose protein, plants march north, plants move uphill, polar bears aggressive, polar bears cannibalistic, polar bears deaf, polar bears drowning, polar bears eating themselves, polar tours scrapped, popcorn rise, porpoise astray, profits collapse, prostitution, psychiatric illness, puffin decline, radars taken out, railroad tracks deformed, rainfall increase, rape wave, refugees, reindeer endangered, release of ancient frozen viruses, resorts disappear, rice threatened, rice yields crash, rift on Capitol Hill, rioting and nuclear war, Rise and Fall of Rome, river flow impacted, rivers raised, roads wear out, robins rampant, rocky peaks crack apart, roof of the world a desert, rooftop bars, Ross river disease, ruins ruined, Russia under pressure, salinity reduction, salinity increase, Salmonella, Salmon Decline, satellites accelerate, school closures, sea level rise, sea level rise faster, seals mating more, sewer bills rise, severe thunderstorms, sex change, sexual promiscuity, shark attacks, sharks booming, sharks moving north, sheep shrink, shop closures, short-nosed dogs endangered, shrinking ponds, shrinking shrine, ski resorts threatened, skin cancer, slow death, smaller brains, smog, snowfall increase, snowfall heavy, soaring food prices, societal collapse, soil change, songbirds change eating habits, sour grapes, space problem, spectacular orchids, spiders invade Scotland, squid aggressive giants, squid population explosion, squid tamed, squirrels reproduce earlier, stingray invasion, storms wetter, stormwater drains stressed, street crime to increase, subsidence, suicide, swordfish in the Baltic, Tabasco tragedy, taxes, tectonic plate movement, teenage drinking, terrorism, threat to peace, ticks move northward (Sweden), tides rise, tigers eat people, tomatoes rot, tornado outbreak, tourism increase, trade barriers, trade winds weakened, traffic jams, transportation threatened, tree foliage increase (UK), tree growth slowed, trees in trouble, trees less colourful, trees more colourful, trees lush, tropics expansion, tropopause raised, truffle shortage, truffles down, turtles crash, turtle feminised, turtles lay earlier, UFO sightings, UK coastal impact, UK Katrina, uprooted - 6 million, Vampire bats, Vampire moths, Venice flooded, violin decline, volcanic eruptions, volcanic eruptions redux, Iceland volcano eruption, walrus pups orphaned, walrus stampede, war, war between US and Canada, wars over water, wars sparked, wars threaten billions, wasps, water bills double, water scarcity (20% of increase), water stress, weather out of its mind, weather patterns awry, Western aid cancelled out, West Nile fever, whales lose weight, whales move north, whales wiped out, wheat yields crushed in Australia, wildfires, wind shift, wind reduced, wine - harm to Australian industry, wine industry damage (California), wine industry disaster (US), wine - more English, wine - England too hot, wine -German boon, wine - no more French , wine passé (Napa), wine stronger, winters in Britain colder, winter in Britain dead, witchcraft executions, wolves eat more moose, wolves eat less, workers laid off, World at war, World War 4, World bankruptcy, World in crisis, World in flames, Yellow fever, and [INSERT SOME NEW THING EVERY DAY HERE]

then we will lose the argument. Every single day, some new thing gets added to this insane list, and run of the mill people, even some who think themselves conservatives, swallow it hook line and sinker.

[rlmorel]

Any thinking person who buys into this is simply swallowing and regurgitating what they are told in the media. And that includes some conservatives and people who present themselves as such.

What really turned the worm for me came in at least four separate parts, and it did so because if you have to resort to alarmism, falsifying data, and misrepresenting reality, that is a pretty good indicator you aren't dealing with the facts, and that is the modus operandi of the Left with respect to nearly every single issue of substance, but in this case, climate change. These were the points that made me realize that man-caused global warming is a religion, not science:

1.). The falsifying of data to produce the Mann "Hockey Stick" graph. Here are the emails from that hack back in 2009. (I cannot find the climate modeling computer code they stole from East Anglia University that had comments in the code describing what they were doing and why...they had to find a way to get rid of what is called the "Medieval Warming" to. make their hysterical claims stick):

This is the raw data before they began their "tricks" as described in the email below to flatten it out and get rid of it. They had to do that, otherwise, normal thinking people might look at the data and say "Hey, this looks like a natural cyclical process, not something caused by humans!" So here is what the data looked like before and after all on the same graph:

And then, to read these emails and see the code comments:

• From: Phil Jones. To: Many. Nov 16, 1999
  "I've just completed Mike's Nature [the science journal] trick of adding in the real temps to each series for the last 20 years (ie, from 1981 onwards) and from 1961 for Keith's to hide the decline."

• From Phil Jones To: Michael Mann (Pennsylvania State University). July 8, 2004
  "I can't see either of these papers being in the next IPCC report. Kevin and I will keep them out somehow — even if we have to redefine what the peer-review literature is!"

• From: Kevin Trenberth (US National Center for Atmospheric Research). To: Michael Mann. Oct 12, 2009
  "The fact is that we can't account for the lack of warming at the moment and it is a travesty that we can't... Our observing system is inadequate"

• From: Phil Jones. To: Many. March 11, 2003
  “I will be emailing the journal to tell them I’m having nothing more to do with it until they rid themselves of this troublesome editor.”

• From Phil Jones. To: Michael Mann. Date: May 29, 2008
  "Can you delete any emails you may have had with Keith re AR4? Keith will do likewise."

• From: Michael Mann. To: Phil Jones and Gabi Hegerl (University of Edinburgh). Date: Aug 10, 2004
  "Phil and I are likely to have to respond to more crap criticisms from the idiots in the near future."

  2.). The deliberate misrepresenting of data at the highest levels from a statistical perspective to buttress the argument for man-caused (anthropogenic) global warming.. In the 2007 IPCC Statement on Global Warming, they included the graph below three times to demonstrate that the rate of warming was accelerating. Remember, this is the IPCC, the highest level official organization in the world dedicated to climate change.

  

  I have worked with data, and even I can see the issue with this IPCC official graph that they buttress their argument (as did Obama's EPA) with: when calculating the rate of change in a trend line as they have done here with the red, blue, and orange lines, is that you can make that graph say anything...ANYTHING you want it to just by changing your starting and ending points. You could even make the temperature change decline if you wished. This fraud was not unintentional. It was fully intentional. I believe it was pulled and discredited after the criticism.

  Furthermore, this one is interesting, because it highlights the dynamic that has completely and absolutely taken over the scientific community. You cannot deviate from the religion. Lord Christopher Monckton (mentioned below) called the head of the Statistics Department at Cambridge University to ask him to opine on this graph. The Department Chair looked at the data, and said something like "I know what you are going to ask me to answer about this data, and knowing you, I know what this data is, so I cannot go on the record. I have a job to consider."

  That is telling. It was a simple statistical question that even someone like me who doesn't have the breadth of the educational underpinnings on this could answer, but he could not get this person to comment publicly on it because it would endanger his livelihood. That's Science? Really? That people are afraid to SPEAK THE SIMPLE TRUTH ON ANY ASPECT OF IT? Dissent from the religion is a third rail for the scientific community. Look at what happened to Dr. Willie Soon, who came out with a peer reviewed paper and was attacked on it because it didn't support the global warming narrative. Not only was his paper attacked, he was personally attacked because he publicly deviated from the narrative, and was labeled a tool of the fossil fuel industry because he accepted grants from them for research. We all know peer review is an utter joke now anyway, but...if someone gets money from groups to buttress global warming, are they similarly labeled as shills of that industry? Of course not. Any thinking person can see that double standard.

  3.). The recognition that some of the same people who scream the loudest about global warming are the same people who were warning us back in the Seventies that we were entering another ice age and that the projections from decades ago show a complete lack of man-caused climate change. (Paul Ehrlich in particular. If you are interested, this is an interesting article about that arrogant loser, and how wrong he has been on everything: What Paul Ehrlich's “Eco-Catastrophe!” Tells Us about Climate Change Alarmism. It puts him and the alarmism in proper context). See the graph below:

  

  This is what Christopher Monckton showed to Congress, and his suggestion was, instead of spending tens of trillions of dollars to combat "global warming"...do nothing.

  4.). This part, I admit, came after I was already long opposed to man-caused global warming but it cemented it for me. As an American, you want to get Damned Hopping Mad about treatment of a foreigner Lord Christopher Monckton from the UK) who was invited to appear in front of a special Congressional hearing regarding man-caused climate change:

  LINK TO VIDEO: Lord Christopher Monckton appears as an invited guest in front of Congress to discuss anthropogenic climate change.

  Boy, did this ever piss me off watching this. I was ashamed as an American. All the Leftist Democrats on this committee simply insulted him, attacked him personally, attacked his credentials, shouted him down, filibustered him, and so on. I give him a huge amount of credit for not losing his cool, because I sure did.

  As I said, this last one cemented it for me. Because this is what Leftists, and nearly everyone who is a rabid adherent of man-caused global warming does. They resort to ad hominem attack, because that is all they have. And to see it from our elected officials was disturbing and disgusting. If you can't pound the facts, pound the podium.