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In your no 14 you make the following statement

"Study it for a while if you can even stand to admit that you are wrong. (Most people on this forum can do no such thing, by the way.)

I would so much like to call your attention to this remark especially.

"and to admit that you are wrong. (Most people on this forum can do no such thing, by the way.)"

In the last TWO YEARS on this fourm To the best of my knowledge and let the RECORD SPEAK FOR ITS SELF I have NEVER SEEN NOR CAN I RECALL A PLACE WHERE DOC HAS EVER ADMITTED TO BEING WRONG !!! IT HAS ALLWAYS BEEN THE OTHER GUY.

This ought to tell you something !!

The TRUTH will always come out

regards

don

gain in your 14 You state the following

What I am saying, in case you did not notice, is that John 10:26 utterly destroys the Weseleyan/Arminian notion that God elects based on His precognition of a sinner's faith. According to the Lord's Own logic, election is the ultimate cause of the sinner's faith, not the result of his faith. John 6 also rules out the Wesleyan/Arminian position--very emphatically so.

Again some of doc's OWN OPINIONS And just as arrogant and full of pride in himself as usual.

Lets consider John 10:24--26

"John 10:24-27

24 Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly.
25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

First we must consider what the words of v. 24 imply.

But the problem all along had not been the problem of clarity about who Jesus really was. He gave evidence in the many miracles He had performed,and this would point to with even a clear answer In fact one would just have given them more ammunition which would have spurred them on even more in the area of thier hostility. One can read the words quite plainly

My sheep listen to my voice; I known them and they follow me (10:27)

At his point it becomes quite easy to conclude that the choice to accept Jesus lies outside of the individual's power. Right off I want to agree with the fact that only those who are allready in the flock can hear Jesus voice and follow

So then the critical question is

How does one BECOME A MEMBER OF THE FLOCK ?

The answer to all of this has been given back in that FAMOUS chapter John 6 in Jesus earlier examination of thier unbelief. (John 6:43--45) It was quite plain that He taught that NO ONE could come unto Him unless the Father draws them. Here too it would appear like HUMAN WILL and belief has NOT a role to play. But in the very NEXT breath Jesus says this

"EVERYONE WHO LISTENS TO THE FATHER AND LEARNS FROM HIM COMES UNTO ME"

Stout words indeed. For Jesus was not preaching Absolute Election or Predestination He was saying that the acceptance or rejection to listen and learn from the Father depended upon a persons willingness. Their exclusion from being of the flock depended upon thier choice or willingness to listen and learn of the Father.

A very important point needs to be made at this point. That is we have not been talking about a spiritual approach to God. Just a willingness to listen and learn of God. While man is spiritually dead and cannot approach or please God in any way. He can have the knowledge of a existence of God.

Now the Calvinist WILL tell you that natural man wants nothing to do with God. This is not totaly true. For in Rom 1:19 In reading on you see the awfull picture of sinful man becoming REPROBATE But please note something. Paul in describing the fallen state of man in Rom 3 uses the word ALL But in Rom 1 he uses the word THEY This denotes that NOT ALL are doing this or he would have used that word.

Now lets look at what these people were doing in Romans 1.

" V 21. "Because that when they knew God they glorified Him not"
" V 22. "Professing themselves to be wise"
" V 23 "And changed the glory of the uncoruptible God"

In every case above you can notice a CHOICE to refuse to learn about God. The Calvinist will very quickly quote Rom 3:11 to you

" There is none that UNDERSTANDETH God, there is none that SEEKETH after God"

But take note there is not a mention of the fact they can not LEARN about God when the chance is given. This chance comes in the form of His Word and the preaching of it. Sure they can reject this knowledge just as the Jews did in John 10. But there is an equall chance they can learn and be drawn to Jesus in doing so.

God bless

don