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You are responsible to believe the gospel. God commands men everywhere to repent.

To use the doctrine of predestination to say "But why?" is to make the very mistake which an irresponsible reprobate would predictably make. Please be careful here!

The reason why I say that it is a predictable mistake is because it is the very question which Paul anticipates and answers in Romans 9:19-20.

The fact that you posed this question as an objection against the Calvinistic interpretation of Romans 9 is an independent witness that we Calvinists are reading Romans 9 correctly. And Paul is warning you in particular about the problem of doctrinal hard-heartedness.

God takes the credit as the first cause of all things. This is part of what it means to be Lord. You really do need to confess this. "In Him we live and move and have our being," and "He upholds all things by the Word of His Power." This idea that God is the first cause of all things in matters of salvation and damnation is clear in Romans 9. But it goes without saying that you take the blame as the efficient cause of all of your own wickedness.

(When God hardens your heart, it proceeds according to mechanisms of your own wickedness. You need to confess that about your own sinful nature. The idea that you are accountable to God for your actions and attitudes is another aspect of confessing His Lordship. It's just outside the scope of what Paul is emphasizing in Romans 9. He is talking about the predestinarian side of reality, not the free agency side of reality.)

The reason why I say that it is a predictable mistake is because it is the very question which Paul anticipates and answers in Romans 9:19-20.

The fact that you posed this question as an objection against the Calvinistic interpretation of Romans 9 is an independent witness that we Calvinists are reading Romans 9 correctly. And Paul is warning you in particular about the problem of doctrinal hard-heartedness.

18 Therefore hath He mercy on whom He will have mercy, and whom He will He hardeneth. Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth He yet find fault? For who hath resisted His will? Romans 9:18&19

Sorry the_doc but i don't think I did any such thing.

The Lord be with you,

Nukem

You are responsible to believe the gospel. God commands men everywhere to repent. To use the doctrine of predestination to say "But why?" is to make the very mistake which an irresponsible reprobate would predictably make. Please be careful here!

I have a couple questions on this..

Can a non-elect "believe the gospel"

Can a non elect "repent"?

I dont think that the Calvinists understand that this makes no sense to those that are not Calvinists..

Jerry and I had an exchange on this before...and I think he was trying to explain that the requirement was the same for both the "elect" and the "non elect"now that I could understand..But I thought that before you could repent or believe you had to be regenerated...???

Is there a "punishment" or "consequence" for a non elect person who does not follow that command?

With a response like you gave to me, I am inclined to believe that we are using different definitions of the word "predestination," with correspondingly different viewpoints on how we are approaching this discussion. If we are to discuss this intelligently, we need to know exactly how you are defining "predestination," without using other words which may have different meanings to you and me.

I have been using the word as "God created me, specifically, to go to hell" or "God created me, specifically, for heaven." I have no choice in the matter. Yet here you are saying that God is commanding men everywhere (which I read as all men) to repent. I agree with that statement. That statement, BTW, implies the choice, and ability, to repent. I have been suspicious for quite some time (through several threads) that we are talking at cross purposes here. Statements like the one you made to me imply (to me) that we have different definitions for this word, and we really should get our terms straight before we discuss this issue any further.

The fact that you posed this question as an objection against the Calvinistic interpretation of Romans 9 is an independent witness that we Calvinists are reading Romans 9 correctly.

Mere disagreement does not prove a point in your favor.