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To: JasonC
Just a few thoughts on reasoning to debunk reason: First off, I do think the case could be made that when taken to its ultimate end, the skeptic's argument must extend to include reason itself onto logical reasoning. In the case of ultimate skepticism, there exists an unavoidable necessity that if all that is known is achieved by strictly sensory means, any conceptual knowledge, be it premise, conclusion, argument, or entire philosophical worldview, is therefore also of sensory origin. Simply put, if all is sensory then all that we know and everything we do with that knowledge must also be sensory. In this argument's ultimate ends, all concepts reduce simply to sensory associations made by the mind based upon sensory impacts that bring about some sort of association. If inescapably all is sensory, then so too must be the conceptual associations of skeptics who reason that reasoning is fundamentally sensory and therefore imprecise. Basically, it gets to a point beyond the necessity of the distinctions you made as in the ultimate ends of the sensory argument, all including all concepts are of sensory origin, therefore making the sensory nature of reaching conclusions about the sensory nature of reasoning is inescapable (I just realized what a mouthful that last little bit is to say...sorry if it confuses anybody reading it!).

So basically it is in that sense that I call it ironic that Hume et al would reason the practice of logical reasoning to have it's vulnerability in it's sensory nature when the very concept of reason itself, not to mention a concept of what constitutes sensory, is under the ultimate ends of such an argument itself derived from sensory associations, which, for the sake of consistency, must also be inherent with their flaws, or more specifically the sensory defined concept of what constitutes a flaw. - It's simply taking a derived form of skepticism to its end, which is also beyond what most skeptics themselves are willing to admit but nevertheless may be arrived at. In that end exists an internally turned being with certitude in nothing - almost like a psychological reclusiveness for lack of a better phrasing.

As for the turn to revelation, indeed it was a criticism of Al Ghazali, but specifically moreso of what stemmed from him. Though Al Ghazali himself was not the fundamentalist literalism I criticize, he undeniably made the world a better place for those after him who propagated extreme literalism in the Koran. It's also a criticism of convenience in that he took his leap of faith to the revelation that was closest to him. Law or no law of the state at the time, it's a decision of convenience in more ways than one (including the convenience of not upsetting the authorities by contradicting their rule, which is understandable though still the element of choice exists). Needless to say, the presence of that element of choice on the whole as well as a preexisting societal dictate towards one choice over all others makes his choice a weaker one, in that he took the safe route. It's an unfortunate solution to any riddle, even though it may have been the most practical. It's kinda like putting an enormous effort into debunking and completely dismantling somebody else's viewpoint then proposing what is right in front of you as an alternative, for whatever reason be it legal, practical, or political. In that sense, Al Ghazali's alternative route was that which conveniently was in front of him, known to him, and heavily expected of him, meaning it was not an alternative chosen for any particular merit other than that it was there and it was what he knew. It was a convenient piece to complete his puzzle with, and any predetermined societal bias towards that piece just further shows the reasons why it was chosen.

As for our own brand of literalism in western society, sure we have our set of strains. In fact, being a strict constructionist I could arguably be said to subscribe to one of them. A distinction must be made in the extent of literalism. Literalism in reading brief rulebook for legislative government is a lot different than an absurdly literal reading of the Koran that digs itself so deeply behind the words that it finds itself at odds with reality. There are times to be literal, and other times where being literal is absurd. Literally reading a rulebook in a game is practical for society. Literally reading an allegorical abstract defeats the purpose all together, making it absurd.

This is indeed turning into a fun discussion! I look forward to your next set of thoughts on it.

23 posted on 09/19/2001 11:45:45 PM PDT by GOPcapitalist
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To: GOPcapitalist; JasonC
Just when you start feeling good about your own intelligence somebody shows up to demonstrate how you're playing Wheel of Fortune while they're playing Jeopardy. Ouch
28 posted on 10/27/2001 8:42:31 PM PDT by MattinNJ
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