Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

To: DreamWeaver
I cannot believe all Muslims are fanatics.

"Fanatic" is a loaded and misleading word. Is an American soldier sacrificing his life in defence of his country a fanatic? Or is a person devoting his whole life to help the poor a fanatic?

If you believe that Islam represent the ultimate truth and the God/Allah wants you to fight for the submission of infidels with a sword and you act on it are you a fanatic?

Or if you believe that you should give away everything what you have to the poor and follow Christ are you fanatic?

Or if you believe that getting rich is the ultimate goal and you work 80 hours weeks to achieve this are you a fanatic?

Or if you are zealous physician who works even harder the businessman for little money, are you a fanatic?

I thing that problem is not with the degree of zeal and commitment but with the CONTENT of your beliefs. If you believe in something good and beautiful and you live according to it your life will be good and beautiful. But if your belief in something not so good that of course it is better if you are not a "fanatic".

The most commited Christians try to emulate their Teacher to become meek, compassionate and loving, even to their enemies, to turn their second cheek and return good for evil. They can become monks, nuns or even hermits.

On the other hand the most pious Muslims will try to emulate Muhammad who was waging wars, capturing people, robbing and slaughtering his enemies.

But majority of the people will be lukewarm and "moderate" so the "average" Muslim and Christian will not differ that much.

53 posted on 10/10/2001 8:22:03 AM PDT by A. Pole
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 6 | View Replies ]


To: A. Pole
But majority of the people will be lukewarm and "moderate" so the "average" Muslim and Christian will not differ that much.

But the social climate in which the people love is much "warmer" and "immoderate" than the one to which the average Christian conforms. Do we even ring church bells to sound the hours anymore(they were originally calls to prayer), do most places even observe closing hours on Sunday. Even in "secular" places like Istanbul, Muslims are constantly reminded of their religious duties. Furthermore, I think the consensus is that fundamentalism is stronger today than it was fifty years ago, because Islam--unlike the Judaism-- has never gone through an "Enlightenment." Thus Arab nationalism, ewhich was supposed to supplant Islam as a unifying force Arabs, has had to give way to a resurgent Islam. You can see this in the PLO: its radicalism has become more and more religious in tone.

56 posted on 10/10/2001 8:45:58 AM PDT by RobbyS
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 53 | View Replies ]

To: A. Pole; DreamWeaver
But majority of the people will be lukewarm and "moderate" so the "average" Muslim and Christian will not differ that much.

This is where you made your serious error. You're assuming that a categorical equality, "lukewarmness", "average", "moderate" is the same thing as a substantive equality in terms of behavior.

You could say that although there are extremes in price from the cheapest to the most expensive in both the Rolex and the Timex brands, the "average" of either or the "moderately" priced of either are all pretty much the same. Though it is true that both products lines have a range of price (and maybe even quality) and though it is true that both price and quality for each line can be described in terms of an "average", it is not true that the average of one is equivalent to the average of the other in any but a categorical way.

But if you want to say, "No, I'm speaking of "religion" as a whole and that the average or moderate adherent is pretty much lukewarm", then you're also assuming an essential quality that differs only in the degree to which it is present. You could just as easily say that of the animal kingdom as a whole, the average animal is very small and fairly harmless. That's true, but that category of "average" is an intellectual fiction and will do nothing to protect you against the extremes of size or danger that exist in the animal kingdom. The fact that there are some average sheep and hamsters won't protect you from the average lion or viper or wasp. The animal kingdom analogy, though, is a much closer approach to what's actually going on out there in the world in terms of culture and religion. Although one born into a culture and religion is not as ontologically locked into place as one born as a hamster or a viper, the influences are strong and it's the exception rather than the rule that one ever abandons the ethos of the culture/society/religion that one in born into. This is evident by the continued existence of separate cultures/societies/religions over time. Though there is detectable change over time, it is usually slow. Where it has been fast has been mostly as a result of technological innovation or by invasion and subjugation by another cultural/societal/religious group. And this invasion is not merely being carried out by only the extreme members of that group, the average ones back at home leading the same kinds of lukewarm lives as those of the culture/society/religion being attacked.

Here's a quote by Stephen cited in The Conservative Mind, from Burke to Eliot by Russell Kirk that comes close to what you are saying,
"I believe that many men are bad, a vast majority of men indifferent, and many good, and that the great mass of indifferent people sway this way or that according to circumstances, one of the most important of which circumstances is the predominance for the time being of the bad or good."--J.F.Stephen
It still doesn't follow, though, that the states of indifference of one versus another group are in any way equivalent to each other in substantive terms. It's just saying that between the extremes in any society (and the definition of what's extreme is most often underlaid with assumptions that never reach the light of day in the mind of the person making the definitions) there exists a large number of people who don't readily go one way or the other but can be persuaded to do so. All things considered, one culture/religion may be much more predisposed to one type of extreme than another. And we've seen that in action. Look at the picture of the little boy with his suicide bomber outfit on. Look at the pictures of the little boys carrying both real and toy guns shouting "Slaughter the Jews!" Look at the culture whose Sesame Street-type kids program for pre-school features praise for suicide bombers. If this is only the extreme of this society/religion, then its average is still way different from the average of, say, that of a New Zealander or even an Israeli Jew.
103 posted on 10/13/2001 6:23:56 AM PDT by aruanan
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 53 | View Replies ]

Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article


FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson