Christians Killed, Churches Burned

Crosswalk.com News Channel ^ | 10/5/01 | Crosswalk.com

[anniegetyourgun]

Muslim religious leaders in Pakistan are reported to have issued a fatwa, stating that two Pakistani Christians will be killed for every Muslim who dies during American strikes on Afghanistan. Earlier a former member of Pakistan's legislative assembly, and a nationally known figure connected to Islamic extremist movements, Maulana Sami ul-Haq, told journalists that the Qur'an (Koran) states that Jews and Christians are the enemies of Muslims, and (therefore) by inference should be killed.

Meanwhile, persecution of local Christians continues. Beatings of Christians by Muslim mobs, and the burning and vandalizing of churches and a Christian school are reported. One time when a minister tried to stop a gang of Muslims from burning his church, he was viciously beaten. In Rawalpindi five Christian families were dragged from their homes and savagely beaten during anti-American protests.

In Pakistan, Indonesia, Nigeria and across the Islamic world, many Christians are terrified. They are living in fear and intimidation, facing the prospect of widespread massive and violent reprisals from angry Muslims if America and its allies attack Afghanistan, according to The Barnabas Fund UK. "They cannot understand why these (church and political leaders in the West) have not spoken up on their behalf, or come to their defense," according to The Barnabas Fund organization. Its international director remarked, "The situation is extremely serious and demands urgent attention. Never in living memory has the situation for Christian minorities in the Islamic world been so precarious."

[Illbay]

FREEPER WARNING: Crosswalk.Com is a known source of disinformation. Read and ponder at your own risk.

[Illbay]

"They cannot understand why these (church and political leaders in the West) have not spoken up on their behalf, or come to their defense,"...

Probably because this is pretty much "hearsay," and the stuff of fund-raising letters asking you to send money to mail-drops and blind postoffice boxes.

[Silly]

I knew it was a Christian site, but didn't know about any disinformation. Can you give an example of this? Thanks.

[anniegetyourgun]

You may be right - after all, everyone knows that Christians are not persecuted in such nations as Pakistan, Nigeria, and Indonesia.

[Terriergal]

Muslim religious leaders in Pakistan are reported to have issued a fatwa, stating that two Pakistani Christians

As if they haven't *been* doing that...

[Terriergal]

"They cannot understand why these (church and political leaders in the West) have not spoken up on their behalf, or come to their defense,"

Now, this I *don't* get. Christians, expecting the world to come to their defense?? Someone hasn't been teaching them very well.

As Christians, we are told to expect this kind of behavior, but to fear not.

I am aware that it's easy for me to say, living here... I am aware of that. But it doesn't make it less true. I'm sure I will be afraid too if/when it happens close to me. But surprised? Confused? Never.

[johniegrad]

Don't forget the Philippines. This may or may not be disinformation but there are other sources, some posted here recently, to confirm some of these atrocities. I've learned a number of things about Islam in the past several weeks and I don't like any of them.

[Illbay]

Read the article. It gives no particulars, no names of witnesses, it just assumes you'll swallow whatever they say.

I know that some of these things HAVE been happening, because I see credible news reports from credible news sources. But to tell the truth they are not widespread like the article wants you to think. Why do YOU think that no one else has been talking about it? It's easy to say "ANTI-CHRISTIAN BIAS!" but then you sound just like the radical Muslims.

This is called "propaganda" and it is there for the purpose of bolstering an agenda.

[Illbay]

This may or may not be disinformation but there are other sources, some posted here recently, to confirm some of these atrocities.

It's true, some of these things have been happening. But in the Phillipines as in other places where Muslims are a minority, the goal of the radical Islamists isn't simply to "persecute Christians" but to establish an independent Muslim state.

I think you have to UNDERSTAND WHAT IS GOING ON. It's too simplistic to say "they're persecuting Christians." And in the case of the Phillipines, it's inaccurate.

[Cap'n Crunch]

The Muslims have been carrying out attrocities against the Catholics in the Sudan for a number of years. It hardly got a yawn here in the USA.

Probably would have been a top priority if they had oil.

[Terriergal]

FREEPER WARNING: Crosswalk.Com is a known source of disinformation.

Why don't you try this one then: No Christmas bells

or House of Lords Monday, 18th December 2000.

[johniegrad]

Oh, I'm sorry. Now I realize that all they want is an independent state. Forget everything I said. That justifies all of it.

[Republic of Texas]

" FREEPER WARNING: Illbay is a known source of disinformation. Read and ponder at your own risk. "

[Cap'n Crunch]

heres a website for anyone interested.

www.petersvoice.com/index.htm

This is the homepage when the icons come up, click on the one that says "Bishop Macram Gasis."

There is a story there called "Sudan, cradle of terrorism," along with a plethora of other stories.

[Terriergal]

Left Shoe News (HRAIC)

"HRAIC is a multi-ethnic, multi-religious organization committed to combating abuses in Muslim countries. "

[Prodigal Daughter]

Please stop, you're wasting your time. For every two reported on, there are two thousand not reported on. As if us stupid Christians only depend on Crosswalk.com.

[anniegetyourgun]

Gee, I wonder why articles like this don't provide names of the Christians involved, their churches, their pastors and leaders, addresses of where they meet, and the routes they typically travel?

[Republic of Texas]

This isn't new. Muslims beat, torture and kill Christians all over the world EVERY DAY. There are two people imprisoned in Afghanistan for, PREACHING CHRISTIANITY! If we did that in the US, we'd have 8 million Muslims in prison. (Which is starting to sound like a good idea) This is one more example of the loving and tolerant religion of Islam.

[Ward Smythe]

Why do YOU think that no one else has been talking about it?

A large part of the Christian community has been talking about it.

I know you're not implying that the media tells us everything that is going on. You're too sharp for that.

[Silly]

Crosswalk.Com is a known source of disinformation

Look, you just slammed Crosswalk as a known source of disinformation, as a reason not to believe the above story. You can hardly now cite this same story to back up your claim. I don't have a dog in this fight, and am a renowned skeptic of Internet news. All I'm asking for is a past example, a verified example of disinformation from Crosswalk.

[Prodigal Daughter]

There are two Americans, four Germans, two Danes, two Aussies, and then we have the Alfghan Christians that we can't even get their names. Christians on trial in Alfghanistan

Aid workers in Alfghanistan

Open Doors

[twntaipan]

" FREEPER WARNING: Illbay is a known...anti-Christian bigot

[fporretto]

May I throw in a link?

Credit

Freedom, Wealth, and Peace,
Francis W. Porretto
Visit the Palace Of Reason: http://palaceofreason.com

[ZULU]

In other words, the situation is NORMAL for non-Moslems in Islamic states today.

[rodeocowboy]

What kind of sissy world have we become when people need to come to your defense. I know their situation is precarious, but what happened to getting together with your other christian neighbors and banding together all of the men of your church with faith in the ONE TRUE GOD, and fighting evil and standing against it. It's time that these Christians in Sudan, Pakistan and Uzbekistan start banding together as our forefathers had to against British tyranny.

[Lady Heron]

Somebody please tell me why we let muslims who want to destroy America emigrate here, when there are Christians who are being tormented and need our help around the muslim world. I do not think that they would plot our destruction. They might even be grateful for the freedoms of America.

[Illbay]

Agreed. Take the one about the "Pastor trying to stop them burning his church." Where? Who was the pastor? Who were the people? What situation was involved?

This is the sort of thing that is accepted in the third world, with its inferiority-complex-driven "us vs. them" mindset. But thinking people--Christians included--ought to expect more than pandering to outrage.

[Illbay]

You gave me LOTS of good fodder for examples. Let's start with:

This isn't new. Muslims beat, torture and kill Christians all over the world EVERY DAY. There are two people imprisoned in Afghanistan for, PREACHING CHRISTIANITY!

Okay, you start out by saying that this happense "all over the world EVERY DAY." Then you cite ONE very well-known example, seen all over the media, of TWO women in prison for "preaching Christianity" (which after all IS against the law currently in Afghanistan). So how is your "feeling" that this is a world-wide phenomenon, supported by this one, single, well-publicized example?

ANSWER: It isn't. You (and many others) are able to take ONE example, put it together with many UNSUBSTANTIATED reports, and conclude it's "going on all over the world every day."

It just doesn't follow.

And again:

If we did that in the US, we'd have 8 million Muslims in prison. (Which is starting to sound like a good idea)...

This is what really astonishes me. The "get them before they get us" mentality is bizarre. It is the SAME THING that the "jihadists" believe and act upon. But it is NOT the basis for our moving against the radicals who have attacked us.

You see, we as a society don't share their illogical hatred of others. We protect PRINCIPLES, not prejudices. We are in this because the PRINCIPLES of freedom and liberty and equality are worth defending. NOT because we-hate-them-like-they-hate-us-so-we'll-kill-them-like-they-kill-us. That's just stupid.

In essence, you are saying that you BUY the "logic" and argument of the Taliban and all the other radical Islamists. You simply want to erase "Islam" and put in "Christianity." You want to kill THEM like they want to kill US. You want to JAIL THEM like they want to JAIL US.

How does that make YOU right and THEM wrong? ANSWER: It doesn't; it's just the other side of the same coin Osama bin Laden is using.

Villifying the enemy is understandable up to a point, but where it becomes general, malicious and completely irrational, it steps outside the body of principles that define Western civilization and the United States of America.

[Illbay]

All I'm asking for is a past example, a verified example of disinformation from Crosswalk.

I wish that I had the time to do the research for you but I don't. But just consider this: Note that every SPECIFIC instance they cite in this story is nameless and "placeless." Then, note that each GENERAL statement (e.g. "In Pakistan, Indonesia, Nigeria and across the Islamic world, many Christians are terrified. They are living in fear and intimidation,...") isn't supported by examples at all.

They do mention "five Christian families" taken out and beaten during anti-American riots, but there is a significant absence of details there. For example, could those people have actually been FOREIGNERS living in Pakistan that were set upon for THAT reason? How do we know it was BECAUSE they were Christians that they were attacked?

I have just seen these kinds of "reports" from Crosswalk before, and it's always the same thing: Just diatribes and rhetoric without any attempt to be precise.

FWIW, I haven't watched the 700 Club's "Christian News Network" stuff for a long time, but as I recall I used to be fairly impressed with them because they did try to "get the story" instead of just rant. Their reporters would do on-the-spot reportage, do interviews, present facts or reasonable conjecture. Whether they're still that way or not (given Pat Robertson's trips "over the edge" in recent years) I couldn't say, but that used to be the case, IMO.

But Crosswalk is nothing at all like that.

[marxwas a loser]

FREEPER WARNING: Crosswalk.Com is a known source of disinformation. Read and ponder at your own risk.

FREEPER WARNING: Illbay can sit on freeper all day and night in order to spread dis-information.

QUESTION for Illbay? Do the checks come directly from the HAMAS, PLO, TALIBHAN?

[marxwas a loser]

FREEPER WARNING: Crosswalk.Com is a known source of disinformation. Read and ponder at your own risk.

FREEPER WARNING: Illbay can sit on freeper all day and night in order to spread dis-information.

QUESTION for Illbay? Do the checks come directly from the HAMAS, PLO, TALIBHAN?

[marxwas a loser]

FREEPER WARNING: Crosswalk.Com is a known source of disinformation. Read and ponder at your own risk.

FREEPER WARNING: Illbay can sit on freeper all day and night in order to spread dis-information.

QUESTION for Illbay? Do the checks come directly from the HAMAS, PLO, TALIBHAN?

[DJ MacWoW]

I went to a class at my church last May. Our Pastor told us that between 10 and 20 thousand Christians were martyred last year. HE gave the specific number but I can't remember it. Is that my Pastors fault? And, no, I didn't ask for his source. Why isn't this sort of thing on the news? Why would it be? "Christian" is a dirty word in our society. I know from our church prayer list that there are a lot of attacks on Christians in foreign countries. I'm sorry but I don't memorize names and places. This report may not have info that satisfies you but, pick a country, and it would probably fit a situation there.

[monkeyshine]

Can you name one Islamic Cleric based in the middle east, or one Arab leader, who publically proclaims that OBL's interpretations of the Koran are wrong?

[Quix]

Have subscribed to Croswalk.com for a long time. I may not always agree with everything. But I didn't agree with everything my wife said either. But I never considered her or Crosswalk.com a source of disinformation.

Actually, Crosswalk.com has been a source of many uplifting and very informative things which have always proven out for me in one way or another. Much of what they forward comes from other sources considered reliable by a wide diversity of Christian sites and newsletters.

Of course, if one is religiously materialist to the nth degree, than virtually anything from a God respecting site could be viewed as disinformation.

Still, I was quite surprised to see such an allegation about a site that provides so much useful stuff.

[monkeyshine]

Why do you think the UN just passed it's small arms treaty? It will now make it very difficult to send shipments of weapons into small Christian towns in the Phillipines, Sudan, Idonesia, Pakistan, etc..so that the Christians can defend themselves from these rampaging bands of murderous Islamic death cultists.

[Quix]

I don't know the particulars in the countries you mentioned. I know from colleagues in similar countries that in many if not most or all areas, Christians are spread very thin--the better to spread their "salt" around in Christ's terms.

But even if they were all on the same block, their number would be very small compared to the surrounding society.

Most in such locations go feeling quite called and dedicated to doing God's will even to martyrdom. That doesn't mean they are yippy kai yai yea eager for it. . . nor that they want to be foolish about such things.

The fact remains that they deserve the charitable treatment many Islamists claim is part and parcel of Islam. At least they deserve the human rights most such countries signed on to in various UN treaties, agreements. . . . but we know what such is worth. . . .cheap paper.

But of more concern in the long term is that such will occur routinely in the continental U.S. in due course. The Bible is quite clear where the global gov is heading.-

[AmericanCheeseFood]

Just faithfull Muslims carrying out their duties as posted in the Koran, move along, nothing to see here .

"All your Bible are belong to us ."

Cheese .

[AmericanCheeseFood]

Revelations 13 .

Religion and some forms of government ?

Cheese .

[Quix]

Uhhhhhh, have you been in a cave the last year or so?

Perhaps you've heard of India and radical Hindus and their actions resulting in more than a few Christians dead and many more injured?

The same for a number of nations in Africa.

The same for a number of Asian nations.

In some African nations, it's been of genocide proportions. All quite verified.

Your generic common press has seen fit to minimize it, report it in small blurbs on back pages or not report it at all. You are in the process of seeing Christians become as Jews were in Nazi held areas in the WWII era. Every year the treatments get worse for larger numbers in yet more locales. . . . and the press is willfully blind.

So much so that a famous (name forgotten) Jew wrote a piece sometime in the last 4-10 years in which he castigated the Christian church and the media in general for being so silent on the problem.

I hardly consider it a feather in your cap for you to appear to be as ignorant and biased as the generic media on this issue. It certainly doesn't add weight to your contentions.

[Quix]

Are you saying something like more bigotry than brilliance?

[Orbiting_Rosie's_Head]

I think you should provide us with the precise number of angels that can dance on the head of a pin. Or how about the names, addresses, and the favorite color of each of the estimated 500,000 members of the Rawandan Tutsi tribe that were slaughtered by the Hutus a few years back. I don't believe it really happened. I mean, really, those people with their arms chopped off might have been tourists from South Chicago for all I know. And what about all of those human skeleton pictures of Jews from WWII? I think they were a convention of Ralph Lauren runway models that smoked too many clove cigarettes. I don't think Mr. Hitler killed any Jews at all. He was really a nice man who was misunderstood and we'll never really know cause he blew his brains out before he could write Mein Kampf II: The Golden Years.....

[Is2C]

There is another website called "Voice of the Martyrs" at http://www.voiceofthemartyrs.com/ or http://persecution.com/ (both go to the same site). Their articles are very specific regarding dates, names, locations, etc. Some include photos such as the one below regarding this story:

Radical Muslims attack Christians in Indonesia

September 21, 2001

Churches like this one in Pasuruan, Indonesia are targeted for attack by radical Muslims

Just two days prior to Indonesian President Megawati Sukarnoputri’s Oval Office visit with President Bush, radical Muslims attacked Christian homes and churches in West Java.

According to VOM representatives, the attacks occurred at approximately 7:00 P.M. September 17th, 2001 at Klaksanaan village, Tasikmalaya subdistrict. 23 Christian houses were burned, and 58 Christian families are now homeless.

Two churches were burned in the attack: The Seventh Day Adventist Christian Church and Indonesia Pasundan Christian Church.

No one was killed or seriously injured in the rampage in Klaksanaan village, but fanatical Muslims in Indonesia reportedly have killed 10,000 Christians within the past two years.

“Violence against Christians in Indonesia has not subsided since the impeachment of former President Gus Dur Wahid this past summer,” said VOM spokesman Gary Lane. “ The incident this week in Klaksanan village proves that radical Muslims in Indonesia are motivated by more than just politics.”

VOM asks President Megawati to act decisively in assuring that the perpetrators of this attack and others against Indonesia’s Christian minority are brought to justice.

VOM continues to provide lifepacks and other relief to Christians left homeless at the hands of radical Muslims throughout Indonesia.

Pray for the Christian victims of this violence—that God would strengthen their faith in the midst of this persecution. Also, pray for Indonesian Muslims, that they may come to a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ. Pray for forgiveness and reconciliation between Christians and Muslims. Pray that God’s peace will come to the Muluku Islands, to East and West Java—to all of Indonesia!

For more on persecution in Indonesia, sign up for VOM’s free monthly newsletter

here: FREE NEWSLETTER .

More images...

Keywords: Java Churches burned Megawati Bush violence Muslims Christians West

If you go to www.persecution.com/news/ you can specify that you want to search on news relating to christians being persecuted in Pakistan. I didn't see anything related to this. Just FYI -

[Quix]

Am curious, lllbay,

How many members of your nuclear or extended family were or are rabidly intense, dogmatic, rigid, harsh, authoritarian etc. and claim to be Christians?

[Quix]

Am curious, lllbay,

How many members of your nuclear or extended family were or are rabidly intense, dogmatic, rigid, harsh, authoritarian etc. and claim to be Christians? Your sure rant like the above is true--maybe even several times over.

[Quix]

Am curious, lllbay,

How many members of your nuclear or extended family were or are rabidly intense, dogmatic, rigid, harsh, authoritarian etc. and claim to be Christians?

Your sure rant like the above is true--maybe even several times over.

[Sweet Hour of Prayer]

If Islam is a religion of peace then why are they doing this? How many things and American people has Osama destroyed? This has nothing to do with religion, it's pure hatred. Did they think we'd do nothing in retaliation for murdering 6,000 people?

[Quix]

OOOOPS,

DIDN'T REALIZE IT HAD GONE THRU. SORRY. FOR MULTIPLES.